free Nate

[bobman0330]

I don't understand people saying Nate "went too far." He didn't make a single post in that thread that wasn't civil, constructive, and conciliatory. Anyone who's read Nate's posts or talked to him in real life should know that Nate is passionately devoted to twoplustwo and clear, accurate poker writing in general. Is it really such a cardinal sin for him to use his professional insight to make a much-needed suggestion for the improvement of twoplustwo's product? It shouldn't be overlooked that almost everyone who did more than mock his few typos agreed with him wholeheartedly. This sort of response to well-founded, sincere criticism reflects very poorly indeed on Mason.

Free Nate!

[BluffTHIS!]

nath,

Nate went out of his way to pick a fight with the site owner. He didn't make a post in a constructive criticism sort of manner, but in an insulting and ridiculing manner, and then had the chutzpah to ask for the job of copy editor. And most importantly of all, he was making criticisms of matters that are relatively minor, i.e. typos and perceived grammatical errors, when the total amount of those errors is likely very small, and as well are of far lesser importance than the primary purpose of 2+2 books, which is to present the reader with correct strategy advice in the clearest (not necessarily most grammatically correct) manner. The bottom line is that he shouldn't be surprised at the resulting ban.

Note as well, that Mason and David have shown a willingness to take an awful lot of personal abuse, but aren't so willing to take abuse of their professional repuatations that aren't warranted (to a degree that matters). Nate could probably have gotten by with making a hundred posts saying that Mason is a dick personally, and it would have been ignored. But calling into question, mostly wrongly, Mason's abilities as a publisher is a matter that should obviously be different to posters here. Except to you and your couch buddy of course.

[kleath]

That thread resulting in a permaban for Nate shows a very childish reaction by someone who can't take constructive criticism, I can't see a bannable offense posted by Nate anywhere. He said multiple times he loved 2p2 books, but he felt they had an area they could improve on. Nate is a class act in general and definitely was in that thread as well, this is a great injustice.

Free Nate!

[Pudge714]

FREE NATE

[*TT*]

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I don't understand people saying Nate "went too far."

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Look beyond the thread. Nate bugged Mason via email for a while... the thread is part two of this situation. Knowing Mason an apology and an offer to make things right might permit Nate back, he is a fair person. But Nate did cross the line, there is no doubt there. Publishing is Mason's livelihood, the centerpiece of his life. He takes a lot of pride in his work and rightfully so; you can say things about other facets of Mason's life and it would not be nearly as insulting to him, this must be considered before you rush to Nate's defense by assuming Mason was out of line.

Nates a nice guy and I do hope he comes back, but I don't think a Free Nate campaign will do the trick - it has to start with an apology. This is out of the forums hands, its between the two of them to solve.

[steamboatin]

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He didn't make a single post in that thread that wasn't civil, constructive, and conciliatory.

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Bobman, I think you should reread the thread. He was none of the three. I was going to give him credit for civility because he didn't result to name calling, but when you tell the Grand Poohbah that he can't write, can't edit and runs his business wrong and you are an ass about how you say it, there is nothing civil about that.

I have nothing against Nate but I am not suprised that he got banned. The reason I am not suprised is simple,even after Mason entered the discussion, Nate wouldn't let it go. I think that if he had voiced his opinion, and let it go, that would have been the end of it.

[Ontario_Tory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand people saying Nate "went too far."

[/ QUOTE ]

Look beyond the thread. Nate bugged Mason via email for a while... the thread is part two of this situation. Knowing Mason an apology and an offer to make things right might permit Nate back, he is a fair person. But Nate did cross the line, there is no doubt there. Publishing is Mason's livelihood, the centerpiece of his life. He takes a lot of pride in his work and rightfully so; you can say things about other facets of Mason's life and it would not be nearly as insulting to him, this must be considered before you rush to Nate's defense by assuming Mason was out of line.

Nates a nice guy and I do hope he comes back, but I don't think a Free Nate campaign will do the trick - it has to start with an apology. This is out of the forums hands, its between the two of them to solve.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole concept of a "permaban" for discussing ideas / thoughts sickens me.

You ban somebody for posting porn, being racist, abusive, etc.

But being banned for posting a (some would say fair) criticism, and then defending what you posted, is simply wrong.

Lock the thread, or better yet - refuse to further the debate. But banning somebody? Not to mention an incredibly well respected poster like Nate? Rediculous.

As for Nate apologizing, he should never have to apologize for his opinion, and in one of his last posts he expressed regret for the tone of the thread / the way the thread played out.

Look at his track record - he was not bashing Mason, 2+2, or the books. He was trying to explain how he felt they could be improved. When people disagreed with him, he tried to stress his point.

And he was banned for it.

For shame.

[Mason Malmuth]

He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

[kleath]

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He didn't make a single post in that thread that wasn't civil, constructive, and conciliatory.

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Bobman, I think you should reread the thread. He was none of the three. I was going to give him credit for civility because he didn't result to name calling, but when you tell the Grand Poohbah that he can't write, can't edit and runs his business wrong and you are an ass about how you say it, there is nothing civil about that.

I have nothing against Nate but I am not suprised that he got banned. The reason I am not suprised is simple,even after Mason entered the discussion, Nate wouldn't let it go. I think that if he had voiced his opinion, and let it go, that would have been the end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]


It seems like we were reading different threads cause I what I read he was certainly all 3, I didnt realize "you could improve on this to make a good product even better, these are the reasons I think this:" was an attack. That's what it started out as, I didn't see any personal attacks on Mason, I didn't see anything venomous towards 2p2, all I saw was "you make good books, I think you can make them better by fixing this" and then engaging in a debate about it(or an attempt to at least amongst the "omg you missused a semicolon your argument is invalidated" crowd)

[kleath]

[ QUOTE ]
He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

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Where did he ignore you? He responded to what you were saying and you repeated yourself how he was ignoring you, it was the other way around if anything.