I dont know how to play mid pairs

[Dan Bitel]

kilillan,

uhh, they're pretty simple questions, and are spots you'll get faced with a lot when you rr TT preflop.

What I'm trying to gather is whether there are times and how often you will felt TT after rr preflop and not flopping a set.

Personally, I think that rr TT OOP is a fine play as long as you can get to showdown with it a lot, as then you are actually "seeing" the value you gain by rr preflop. If however if both the examples I gave abot you are c/f and folding, then I fail to see the "value" you get in rr TT preflop

[Kilillan]

gee, you shouldnt reraise TT preflop because youll face hard decisions. You really taught me.

Asking what I do in every situation just shows your experience as a player in my opinion. Everything depends on the players, your table image, their table image and the flow of the game.

Not reraising tens preflop ever is really stupid. And is a constant reminder I'm in SSNL

[Dan Bitel]

Kilillan,

I'm asking for logic, not to be insulted

[Kilillan]

[ QUOTE ]
Kilillan,

I'm asking for logic, not to be insulted

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't give me erroneous logic for not reraising tens preflop.

What does "Personally, I think that rr TT OOP is a fine play as long as you can get to showdown with it a lot, as then you are actually "seeing" the value you gain by rr preflop."
Even mean?

Reraising tens preflop isn't just for value, it's to build a pot with the best hand and attempt to eliminate the poor position with the hand.

Your logic doesn't make any sense, it seems you just want some kind of script to play poker to

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, it seems you just want some kind of script to play poker to

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, well this is disappointing. If anyone who reraises TT preflop can explain why, I'd be very interested in hearing.

Obviously reraising TT preflop in the higher more aggressive games is correct because you will often be taking it to showdown unimproved and winning. Eg. on the original flop if you cbet TT and villain shoves, you can often call correctly at NL$5000 or whatever. At these levels that's a very bad call against average TAGs.

[Kilillan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your logic doesn't make any sense, it seems you just want some kind of script to play poker to

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, well this is disappointing. If anyone who reraises TT preflop can explain why, I'd be very interested in hearing.

Obviously reraising TT preflop in the higher more aggressive games is correct because you will often be taking it to showdown unimproved and winning. Eg. on the original flop if you cbet TT and villain shoves, you can often call correctly at NL$5000 or whatever. At these levels that's a very bad call against average TAGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play near NL5000

and I played a huge amount of hands at NL200 as a decent winner, reraising fairly liberally preflop. I don't understand why you wouldn't reraise preflop here, honestly, could you explain that to me?

And don't say he's going to fold all but JJ+. Because if that's the case then reraise any half/playable hand.

[DWarrior]

Kilillan: I'm also interested in this hand.

I started experimenting with re-raising a lot more liberally in position because I find many players don't play back in a 3-bet pot and in position their hand becomes very transparrent.

OOP though, you don't see their actions before you have to make yours. I think re-raising anything is +ev if the guy will only continue with an overpair or set, but you can't do it too much or they'll start playing back, and TT will occasionally flop a set and stack the overs, and it also doesn't make many second-best hands.

cbloom: Not sure where I read this, but "all pf bets are semi-bluffs".

[Tickner]

cbloom, I know what you are saying, and Killian, I understand what you are saying as well. You are seeming to misunderstand each other.

Cbloom is suggesting that re raising preflop puts his money in as a bluff because he will be put into a lot of tough decisions on the flop/turn/river because his hand is vulnerable on every street. He feels his bet preflop is a bluff and might be bloating the pot which may force him to fold against a TAG when he is OOP and doesnt improve or an overcard appears, right?

And killian is saying that we most likely have the best hand and should re raise preflop for value. We should bet the flop because we most likely have the best hand, and that we will be put in even tougher spots post flop because we didnt reraise preflop.

I think that cbloom is missing the idea that he will indeed fold preflop sometimes so we get value in reraising and sometimes he will call preflop and fold to our cbet so thats also very profitable. On top of that sometimes we will flop a set and that's obv a very profitable situation as well especially when theres already a ton of money in the pot before the flop. Also, if we bet on this flop after RR'ing preflop and he raises, what hands do we put him on? Most of that range beats us so folding is probably okay.

I'm with Killian, reraise preflop and bet the flop. As played, CR flop.

-Tickner

[p-i]

There's some good threads in MSNL about this:

One and two.

It's been awhile since I read them but one of the concepts that I took from them was that raising/reraising (especially OOP) just because you think you have the best hand is bad news bears.

[Kilillan]

[ QUOTE ]
There's some good threads in MSNL about this:

One and two.

It's been awhile since I read them but one of the concepts that I took from them was that raising/reraising (especially OOP) just because you think you have the best hand is bad news bears.

[/ QUOTE ]

like to point out both of those threads are about raising OOP, not re/raising OOP.


[ QUOTE ]
1) Reraising Preflop

Many midstakes players have a very tight reraising range. They will reraise their big hands, and even though their range is so slim, they still make far more money on these hands than they should be making, given how well defined their hands tend to be in certain spots. These same players are content to just call preflop with certain hands, and even though their decision to call may be +EV, they don't even consider their third option, which is to reraise. In certain spots calling may even be your worst option. When you are on the SB facing a button raise or even button facing a CO raise, what do you accomplish cold calling a raise with the majority of your hands?

Sure, calling may be +EV in some of those situations but many don't even consider the +EV situation a reraise would set up for them and how much greater that EV would be than that of calling (the same thing often applies in many spots as far as raising vs overlimping, where both may be +EV but raising may be a much better option). You likely have a +EV situation right there preflop, and if you get called you will often have another +EV situation postflop, even disregarding your actual hand. By reraising you gain momentum, you overrepresent your hand and force them to make a hand, and your reraising range obviously increases, both decreasing the implied odds of your opponents calling and trying to crack your big hand, and increasing your action on your big hands as observant players will realize that you are capable of reraising light. The higher up in stakes you go, the more observant players you encounter.

As far as calling, with clunkier hands like KQ/AJ you will often be folding the best hand when you miss (which will be most of the time), and even when you do get a favorable top pair flop, you will often be unsure of your hand if you are facing a lot of pressure in certain spots. Your hand carries reverse implied odds. With more deceptive hands your actual implied odds to call the LP preflop raise are generally very poor, as LP's raising ranges tend to be very wide. You are also going to be missing the majority of the time, or getting forced off of your more marginal hands (which will often be the best hand) by aggressive players. In both cases you also lack initiative. You have to ask yourself what you are really accomplishing by calling with some these hands.

Just about all of the biggest winners in the 10/20 game on Party have a very "opened up" game. To be even more specific, I believe 4 of the top 5 have close to 30/20 stats, and one is an amazing 47/29. They are awesome post-flop players, and their analysis of situations is dead-on the majority of the time. One other thing that they are very good at doing is spotting and setting up profitable situations preflop. Over and over and over and over. The reraising ranges of some of these top players are astounding. These players are squeezing each other left and right, and have absolutely no problem reraising/rereraising light. You will see full stacks go in with relative garbage. If you didn't know any better, you may chock it up as donk-on-donk violence, when the hand may have just went down between the 2 biggest winners in that game. And believe me, fireworks do fly when they are at the table together. And they aren't the only ones you will see this kind of action from, either. Their preflop game is so much different than what the average midstakes player is used to that it can really be amazing. Their variance shoots up, but the number of +EV situations they are involved in does too, and of course their profits do as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

here's a very good quote from this thread http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1