I do this a lot now - Page 2

timoK · #11 08-23-2007, 03:18 PM

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this doesnt work if villain is a very good player bc hes just putting one bet in the river but in general this river cr spot is the nuts.

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that's right. good player b/f IP on the river.

other question is how many times do you call the 3-bet preflop, call a flop bet and than villain checks behind the turn?
this happens to me at least at lower limits like once in 500 hands.

admiralfluff · #12 08-23-2007, 03:59 PM

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dont remember the last time i played wa/wb on this board. i just c/r flop and fling monkey poo on the way to showdown.

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Yeah. I see this checked behind on the turn fairly often, as lots of people will usually have an A when they c/c tis flop. (I will also check behind this turn often in villain's spot with an underpair).

surfdoc · #13 08-23-2007, 06:52 PM

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dont remember the last time i played wa/wb on this board. i just c/r flop and fling monkey poo on the way to showdown.

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Yeah. I see this checked behind on the turn fairly often, as lots of people will usually have an A when they c/c tis flop. (I will also check behind this turn often in villain's spot with an underpair).

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So what?

If you CR the flop and he calls and folds the turn you win 1BB. If you check/call the flop and he checks behind turn and calls your river bet you win 1.5BB. If you CR the flop and he raises the turn and bets the river you lose 3BB. If you CR the flop and he 3 bets and you call down you lose 2.5BB.

If the guy has an underpair the way we get the most out of him is by check/calling the flop unless he starts folding to our river bets. Hence the WA/WB line. Now I will grant that against certain opposition there will be a need to vary the lines taken but in a vacuum it seems like a c/c flop line is best. What am I missing?

Chris Daddy Cool · #14 08-23-2007, 07:00 PM

in really aggressive games and especially aggressive short games you are missing value by not putting in more action because nobody believes anybody and nobody folds anything. that isn't to say i think checkraising the flop is the best play but it should certainly be in your bag of moves.

surfdoc · #15 08-23-2007, 07:51 PM

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in really aggressive games and especially aggressive short games you are missing value by not putting in more action because nobody believes anybody and nobody folds anything. that isn't to say i think checkraising the flop is the best play but it should certainly be in your bag of moves.

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Fully agree here. BTW, weren't you the one who started the WA/WB line with Ax? Maybe we need to call that CDC's theorem. I have been working on a "surfdoc's theorem" which should be unveiled soon as long as a few people think it is good.

admiralfluff · #16 08-23-2007, 08:03 PM

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So what?

If you CR the flop and he calls and folds the turn you win 1BB.

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In most of these games, he's not folding the turn after we c/r the flop.

dangerfish · #17 08-23-2007, 08:26 PM

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dont remember the last time i played wa/wb on this board. i just c/r flop and fling monkey poo on the way to showdown.

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Yeah. I see this checked behind on the turn fairly often, as lots of people will usually have an A when they c/c tis flop. (I will also check behind this turn often in villain's spot with an underpair).

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So what?

If you CR the flop and he calls and folds the turn you win 1BB. If you check/call the flop and he checks behind turn and calls your river bet you win 1.5BB. If you CR the flop and he raises the turn and bets the river you lose 3BB. If you CR the flop and he 3 bets and you call down you lose 2.5BB.

If the guy has an underpair the way we get the most out of him is by check/calling the flop unless he starts folding to our river bets. Hence the WA/WB line. Now I will grant that against certain opposition there will be a need to vary the lines taken but in a vacuum it seems like a c/c flop line is best. What am I missing?

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Your missing the part about guys making horrible calldowns with pp. If you think they will automatically fold any non-A hand to a check raise and turn bet then I think you are overestimating your fold equity.

milesdyson · #18 08-23-2007, 08:39 PM

yeah, no one folds any pair to a flop c/r and turn bet, especially with a flush draw on the flop, which is why i said i "dont remember the last time i played wa/wb on this board"

anyway i'll post some hands i guess. i know they're not all the same situation as OP, i just don't think the best line in a vacuum is ck/calling flop. also i realize most of these are just 5/10 hands. but imo it's a similar game to stars 10/20

******* Hand 1 ********

vs. bad tag:

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.6SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Button folds, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.3BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9.3BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Results:
Final pot: 13.3BB
Hero Shows Ah Jd
he has Ac 9c - ridic river bet yes.

******* Hand 2 ********

this one obviously different, being a blind battle.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9BB
Hero Shows Ah 10h
he has kings

******* Hand 3 ********

btn's a solid 2p2er,

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.75BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9.75BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11.75BB
Hero Shows 9d Ah
he has queens

******* Hand 4 ********

vs. an unknown

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.6SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.8BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.8BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9.8BB
Hero Shows Ks 10d
he has eights

******* Hand 5 ********

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (10SB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11BB
Hero Shows 8c Kc
he has nines

people just don't fold.

there was another hand (couldn't find hh), where i defended JsTs vs. CO.

flop was AsQs8d and he called a flop checkraise and turn bet with sixes (i gave up on river).

milesdyson · #19 08-23-2007, 08:49 PM

and yes, obviously i picked the ones i won, mainly to show the calldowns and otherwise bad plays i see routinely. of course i'll get raised by better hands on the turn, as well. i just don't think that additional loss outweighs the extra sb on flop and bb on turn i often get because i prevent people from checking turns behind.

Heisenb3rg · #20 08-23-2007, 08:58 PM

Yeah I do this like 100% of the time in your spot.. the more you do it the more you recognise good spots for it.. Ive been doing it succesfuly in some really thin spots recently.

Key is no one folds to your c/r.. Even the best players in 10/20 dont.. (I know cause I do it all the time and always get looked up)

This hand was a week ago against a 50/30/2.1 villain whos been getting EXTREMLY agressive with made hands. Who ive also been spewing against.

People value bet extremly thin on rivers in these short handed games, and not enough people counter it with thin river check/raises IMO.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8BB
Hero showed Kh 8s
BB mucks 7c 3h