Hypothetical river play

[Carmine]

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Isn't this just a question of putting him on a range and stoving your hand against it?

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Mvoss sorry I'm bringing this up on your post. It's just something that has been irking me for awhile.

Why is it in the past six months or so that this forum feels the only way to come to a conclusion about a hand is to stove it. They don't consider the action, the players, hand reading skills, nothing.

Do I really need a computer program to tell me against a guy defending 70% of his hands that i'm ahead 22/3x/44/55/6x/7x/88/99. That I need to discount Jx slightly because of flop play. Does stove tell me if the turn check is correct agaisnt this particular player.

I'm sorry but it's like people forgot to think for themsleves. Few stratgey discissions anymore.

RZK wants to know why OP didn't bet the turn. Well e'fn stove it dude. Stove will tell that the flop is dry as an e'fin bone and the guy called a flop bet. Stove will tell you there's a good chance you are behind on the turn and maybe you should take the FC or this is the perfect player to induce a bluff on the river with K high.

I don't understand why we all bother posting here anymore. Just e'fin stove it!!


Okay, I feel better now.

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for the river play, coming up with the right hand range is all you need to do. that's where hand reading comes into play. then you stove it and have an answer. stove can't often definitively answer questions about flop/turn play, but it is pretty much perfect for this spot. it's all about being able to get to the answer in 5 seconds at the table, though.


re: this specific part of your post...

"Do I really need a computer program to tell me against a guy defending 70% of his hands that i'm ahead 22/3x/44/55/6x/7x/88/99. That I need to discount Jx slightly because of flop play."

including 88 and 99 is pretty sketchy based on preflop and flop, and even if you can say all of this, it still doesn't answer the question posed in the OP. should he raise or not. how much should you discount Jx in your pokerstove? which 3x hands should we include. is our equity so high that it can overcome folding the best hand to a 3-bet even 1% of the time?

guess i just don't really get what you're saying. all you do in this spot is mentally pokerstove the situation and post "yes, i think you have the equity to raise/fold vs. his wide range." pokerstove is the only way to get a real number. then we can start debating the hand range, but you have to start somewhere.

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Hey Miles. My critism was more about the over/incorrect usage of the program in general and not necessarilay aimed at this post. I just chose this thread because the first response was to "stove it" and I guess it was my last straw so to speak. There was no discussion about an estimated range, possibilites of a bluff raise from this particular player, showdown numbers, flop texture, etc etc.

Even when we do stove this hand. How reliable is the information. Only as reliable as the information imput into the program by the user and this can vary quite a bit from user to user I would think. I just think responses should concentrate more on how to estimate a more accurate range given the information available at the time and factor in the possiblites of bluff raises or whatever else needs to be considered

For example Miles you wrote: how much should you discount Jx in your pokerstove? which 3x hands should we include".
I don't know. I can only estimate in relation to what I may or may not know about our opponent. So how do I imput hands in PS. It's also not something you can do at the table(your response seems to inticate that it is). I think you would agree we can't just slide in the top 60%(or whatever he is defending)against our hand.

[yourface]

stove is just a tool.
you still need to use handreading and your knowledge of villain to give stove the right info to be useful to you.

ie,
is villain aggressive enough to value bet any pair here?
is he going to pay off the raise with a pair < T?
what hands does he c/r the flop with?
etc

all of that goes in to setting villain's hand range, and then stove will tell you how much equity you have

[TheHip41]

i [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] this river raise

this guy isn't going to fold a pair after that turn action ever.

he won't have a J very often.

If he 3bets, he probably whiffed on a turn c/r, and if we get 3bet, it's over.

This guy might even call with A high after the turn goes c/c

[YanMTL]

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is villain aggressive enough to value bet any pair here?
is he going to pay off the raise with a pair < T?



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I don't see too much hand reraising here on the river. So the real question here is what hands that we are ahead will he pay us with?

I do think the answer is a lot if he's thinking that we are LAG.

So i love that raise. If 3bet, it's a easy fold for me.

[rzk]

i still think the turn decision is more debatable than the river raise which most people seem to love. was the plan behind the turn check to induce a bluff on the river or to give up altogether unless we improve?

[NinaWilliams]

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i still think the turn decision is more debatable than the river raise which most people seem to love. was the plan behind the turn check to induce a bluff on the river or to give up altogether unless we improve?

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No idea, I didnt play the hand. I think its a mistake though.

[Gurravasa]

I think we all agree that "stove it" is not a good suggestion when analysing a hand. It's pretty much the same as saying "use a calculator", cause thats pretty much what pokerstove is. And just like a calculator, poker stove is no help if we don't give it the right input.

I agree with Carmine that sometimes in theese discussions PS is used in an incorrect manner. I think PS is a great tool to use after we have done the real work, ie deciding what to put in to the stove! I think we all would benefit from shifting the focus from the output from poker stove to what we should put in it!

[mvoss]

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[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this just a question of putting him on a range and stoving your hand against it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mvoss sorry I'm bringing this up on your post. It's just something that has been irking me for awhile.

Why is it in the past six months or so that this forum feels the only way to come to a conclusion about a hand is to stove it. They don't consider the action, the players, hand reading skills, nothing.

Do I really need a computer program to tell me against a guy defending 70% of his hands that i'm ahead 22/3x/44/55/6x/7x/88/99. That I need to discount Jx slightly because of flop play. Does stove tell me if the turn check is correct agaisnt this particular player.

I'm sorry but it's like people forgot to think for themsleves. Few stratgey discissions anymore.

RZK wants to know why OP didn't bet the turn. Well e'fn stove it dude. Stove will tell that the flop is dry as an e'fin bone and the guy called a flop bet. Stove will tell you there's a good chance you are behind on the turn and maybe you should take the FC or this is the perfect player to induce a bluff on the river with K high.

I don't understand why we all bother posting here anymore. Just e'fin stove it!!


Okay, I feel better now.

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Hey Carmine, glad to hear you feel better now. The reason I answered OP's question the way I did is that I truly think he's able to answer his own question better than any one of us. The reason is that he will know which range of hands to put villain on with much more accuracy than the rest of us since he was actually at the table. Pokerstove does not hand read for you, in fact stove doesn't do anything for you except for the tedious math, you still have to make all the important decisions which is exactly why it's such a useful tool.

[mvoss]

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Hey Miles. My critism was more about the over/incorrect usage of the program in general and not necessarilay aimed at this post. I just chose this thread because the first response was to "stove it" and I guess it was my last straw so to speak. There was no discussion about an estimated range, possibilites of a bluff raise from this particular player, showdown numbers, flop texture, etc etc.

Even when we do stove this hand. How reliable is the information. Only as reliable as the information imput into the program by the user and this can vary quite a bit from user to user I would think. I just think responses should concentrate more on how to estimate a more accurate range given the information available at the time and factor in the possiblites of bluff raises or whatever else needs to be considered


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There is no such discussion because how are we able to discuss this with OP, he should know hand ranges, the possibility of a bluff raise and villains SD numbers much better than the rest of us. How should we be able to discuss this with someone who was at the table???

[Gurravasa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this just a question of putting him on a range and stoving your hand against it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mvoss sorry I'm bringing this up on your post. It's just something that has been irking me for awhile.

Why is it in the past six months or so that this forum feels the only way to come to a conclusion about a hand is to stove it. They don't consider the action, the players, hand reading skills, nothing.

Do I really need a computer program to tell me against a guy defending 70% of his hands that i'm ahead 22/3x/44/55/6x/7x/88/99. That I need to discount Jx slightly because of flop play. Does stove tell me if the turn check is correct agaisnt this particular player.

I'm sorry but it's like people forgot to think for themsleves. Few stratgey discissions anymore.

RZK wants to know why OP didn't bet the turn. Well e'fn stove it dude. Stove will tell that the flop is dry as an e'fin bone and the guy called a flop bet. Stove will tell you there's a good chance you are behind on the turn and maybe you should take the FC or this is the perfect player to induce a bluff on the river with K high.

I don't understand why we all bother posting here anymore. Just e'fin stove it!!


Okay, I feel better now.

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Hey Carmine, glad to hear you feel better now. The reason I answered OP's question the way I did is that I truly think he's able to answer his own question better than any one of us. The reason is that he will know which range of hands to put villain on with much more accuracy than the rest of us since he was actually at the table. Pokerstove does not hand read for you, in fact stove doesn't do anything for you except for the tedious math, you still have to make all the important decisions which is exactly why it's such a useful tool.

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well the player that played the hand always has more information than we do. Thats not important, OP wanted help to analyze and you just answered with "figure it out" and follow up with "you know best" wich kind of sucks...