KK ............Flame, cheer or vomit? - Page 2

Kwaz · #11 01-25-2006, 07:33 AM

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I'd cap the flop and see what they do on the turn. Hooray for MP2's JJ getting there.

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I called the flop, intending to raise a non Ace or 2 turn.

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why?

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I really don't think capping does anything for us here.

I definitely think I've got MP2 beat and the only hand I fear from MP1 is AA. I have massive equity here and I'm very confident that MP1 will lead this turn on a blank. I can trap MP2 and have an easy value raise on the big street.

I'm only capping 77 - TT here. For the sole purpose that it allows me to get away cheaply on the turn when led in to or c/r.

I'm almost never capping a flop, with perfect relative position on an aggressor, with anything other than a draw.

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S · #12 01-25-2006, 08:29 AM

if you believe you are most likely ahead then you certainly have the equity to value cap against their ranges.

given the check-3bet, he is probably leading his QQ/JJ regardless of what you do.

FUJItheFISH · #13 01-25-2006, 08:37 AM

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Both villians are solid TAGs. The rest of the table is useless.

MP2 is slightly passive preflop.
His 3bet range is QQ+, AKs
Straight forward ABC postflop.
But he makes up for his passiveness preflop by being a little more aggressive postflop when he traps with good hands.
Stats: 22/4/2.6
FWIW - I don't have a massive number of hands (~100) on this guy and this is the first time I've seen him cold call.

MP1 is solid all round.
Will bet draws and middle pair into small fields.
No hesitation to value c/r and cap.
Has used the screwplay x2
Capping range - TT+, AKo+ AQs??
Stats: 20/8.5/1.9

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG folds, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (11.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

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wtf i thought i made a reply but its gone.

okay kwaz

they checked that turn, what does that tell you? if they are even half-ass decent and they have AK or AQs or even AA they wont check that turn because why on earth would any of you guys have a 2 in your hand? its very very unlikely. so since neither of them like that ace, bet. and bet the river too in my scenario and fold to a check-raise because that villain doesnt care if you have an ace.

so i vote vomit.

Kwaz · #14 01-25-2006, 08:52 AM

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if you believe you are most likely ahead then you certainly have the equity to value cap against their ranges.

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I know I have the equity to cap, I'm foregoing to exploit that edge on the big money street.

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given the check-3bet, he is probably leading his QQ/JJ regardless of what you do.

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If I thought this, I would be happy to cap the flop. But I think he checkraises or checkcalls the turn 80+% after I cap the flop.

The other 20%, I don't know how happy I would be to see him lead.

Kwaz · #15 01-25-2006, 09:13 AM

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okay kwaz

they checked that turn, what does that tell you? if they are even half-ass decent and they have AK or AQs or even AA they wont check that turn because why on earth would any of you guys have a 2 in your hand? its very very unlikely. so since neither of them like that ace, bet. and bet the river too in my scenario and fold to a check-raise because that villain doesnt care if you have an ace.

so i vote vomit.

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I'm not saying it's right, but at the time, this is what was going through my head:

If I was ahead, I thought by checking I would make more money than betting.

I figure, after checking, both, being solid TAGs, will fold to a bet and both villians will have 4 outs collectively to a win.

So 9% (4/44) of the time, I will lose 11.75BB.

But I also figure that both will bet and call a blank river.
Netting me 2BB 88% of the time. 4% a K falls and they fold.

.09* 11.75 = 1.07BB
.88* 2 = 1.66BB

I was also thinking I would raise a blank (non paint) river possibly doubling the gains.

Unfortunately, this was one of the 9% [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

TheNomad · #16 01-25-2006, 09:20 AM

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they checked that turn, what does that tell you? if they are even half-ass decent and they have AK or AQs or even AA they wont check that turn because why on earth would any of you guys have a 2 in your hand? its very very unlikely. so since neither of them like that ace, bet. and bet the river too in my scenario and fold to a check-raise because that villain doesnt care if you have an ace.

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I agree. Hero has position so a bet is clearly the right thing. Might have pushed out the other players who are probably holding JJ, QQ or KK. If they think you have three aces they are beat and fold. If they think you have two aces they only have two outs, so they should fold here too and if they don't, make a note.

shant · #17 01-25-2006, 04:03 PM

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I'd cap the flop and see what they do on the turn. Hooray for MP2's JJ getting there.

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I called the flop, intending to raise a non Ace or 2 turn.

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That's totally cool. For some reason I thought you were inbetween the two players. Since you're in position that's a cool plan. Turn card sucks, but I think you have to bet/fold when checked to.

Kwaz · #18 01-25-2006, 09:57 PM

Anybody else want to shed some light as to why betting this turn is better than checking?

shant · #19 01-25-2006, 10:08 PM

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Anybody else want to shed some light as to why betting this turn is better than checking?

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I'll elaborate some. When MP1 caps and 3-bets the flop, he has to have an overpair. It would be a retarded play with AK since he's not getting a free card for his gutshot and overcards.

So, he has AA-JJ. The other guy from your read has QQ-TT. So on the turn, you still may have the best hand and these guys are just as afraid of that card, unless MP1 has a set of Aces now. They're not checkraising with worse hands, and you're drawing near dead if they do. Seems like and easy bet/fold.

FUJItheFISH · #20 01-25-2006, 10:38 PM

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okay kwaz

they checked that turn, what does that tell you? if they are even half-ass decent and they have AK or AQs or even AA they wont check that turn because why on earth would any of you guys have a 2 in your hand? its very very unlikely. so since neither of them like that ace, bet. and bet the river too in my scenario and fold to a check-raise because that villain doesnt care if you have an ace.

so i vote vomit.

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I'm not saying it's right, but at the time, this is what was going through my head:

If I was ahead, I thought by checking I would make more money than betting.

I figure, after checking, both, being solid TAGs, will fold to a bet and both villians will have 4 outs collectively to a win.

So 9% (4/44) of the time, I will lose 11.75BB.

But I also figure that both will bet and call a blank river.
Netting me 2BB 88% of the time. 4% a K falls and they fold.

.09* 11.75 = 1.07BB
.88* 2 = 1.66BB

I was also thinking I would raise a blank (non paint) river possibly doubling the gains.

Unfortunately, this was one of the 9% [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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ill bet that they dont fold to your turn bet enough to warrant checking behind.

edit: but i like your thinking