Could anyone in the world have lost less with these pocket kings?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
It would take a fortuitous flop for KK to hold up against 8 people. The +EV is not as good as some of you suspect. In a 9-way pot, it's only slightly better than medium suited connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Gocee.com, KK wins nearly 30% of the time against eight random hands, whereas mid-suited connectors win only half as often.



[ QUOTE ]
If I raise pre-flop, then anyone who flops a better hand will undoubtedly make a bundle off me because they'll have position on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

They'll only make "a bundle" if you play badly.




[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who makes a mediocre hand will be more likely to chase and draw out because I made the pot so much bigger with my PFR. If the flop had been safer, my chances of winning it unimproved would've been greater since I didn't bloat the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good God. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[SixForty]

[ QUOTE ]
It would take a fortuitous flop for KK to hold up against 8 people. The +EV is not as good as some of you suspect. In a 9-way pot, it's only slightly better than medium suited connectors. If I raise pre-flop, then anyone who flops a better hand will undoubtedly make a bundle off me because they'll have position on me. Anyone who makes a mediocre hand will be more likely to chase and draw out because I made the pot so much bigger with my PFR. If the flop had been safer, my chances of winning it unimproved would've been greater since I didn't bloat the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your equity here is MUCH bigger than the 11% that is your fair share. Raise now while you have the equity!!!

(No to mention the times when you flop a set, and all those people with weak draws will chase that bloated pot when they are drawing near dead!)

Raise it!!

[Andy Ross]

Fortuitous flops come by more than 1/9 times. That's why it's an obvious raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Loc: Valuetown

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like someone was behind on his rent, and had to move on.

[poboys]

[ QUOTE ]
According to Gocee.com, KK wins ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive my ignorance, what site is this?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to Gocee.com, KK wins ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive my ignorance, what site is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to this link and yee shall find:

http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm

[KSOT]

[ QUOTE ]
According to Gocee.com, KK wins nearly 30% of the time against eight random hands, whereas mid-suited connectors win only half as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I ran the hand in a simulator against 8 random hands and 67s had 17%, while KK had 19%. Hardly a wide enough gap to make not raising for value criminal.

[ QUOTE ]
They'll only make "a bundle" if you play badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play badly like trying to be the aggressor in the hand OOP and allowing people to slowplay me when they hit a hand (extremely likely with 9 players)? I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Good God. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not making this stuff up you know. Not raising one street to keep the pot small and take it down on another is written about in every Sklansky book I've come across.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
I am on the big blind with K K
8 people limp, I check!

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped after reading this part of the post and puked in my mouth. I didn't read anymore.

If you think this is the right play, you are dead wrong.

Haupt_234

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to Gocee.com, KK wins nearly 30% of the time against eight random hands, whereas mid-suited connectors win only half as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I ran the hand in a simulator against 8 random hands and 67s had 17%, while KK had 19%. Hardly a wide enough gap to make not raising for value criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your simulator gives very different results than the one at Gocee.com. In addition, similations assume that everyone sees the river--which clearly isn't going to happen in a real hand.




[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They'll only make "a bundle" if you play badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play badly like trying to be the aggressor in the hand OOP and allowing people to slowplay me when they hit a hand (extremely likely with 9 players)? I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you give up four BB by failing to raise PF with a hand that will win 20%-30% of the time, because you are afraid of losing a few big bets when you do lose? That's the defination of scared, loose-passive poker.




[ QUOTE ]
I'm not making this stuff up you know. Not raising one street to keep the pot small and take it down on another is written about in every Sklansky book I've come across.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me where Sklansky says to not raise premium pairs preflop in the blinds after nearly everyone has called before you.

[KSOT]

Show me where I said he says that. I'm merely using one of the concepts from his books slightly "out of the box."

I still don't know where you're getting the 20%-30% figure from. I said I ran 8 random hands and got under 20% for KK. 67 suited had nearly as much equity as me. I still think disguising my hand OOP and keeping the pot small is at least something to consider instead of attaching everyone to a big pot and being slowplayed by a better hand or sucked out on by a gutshot that I GAVE someone correct odds to draw to for 4 extra bets I will win less than 1/5 times.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Show me where I said he says that. I'm merely using one of the concepts from his books slightly "out of the box."

I still don't know where you're getting the 20%-30% figure from. I said I ran 8 random hands and got under 20% for KK. 67 suited had nearly as much equity as me. I still think disguising my hand OOP and keeping the pot small is at least something to consider instead of attaching everyone to a big pot and being slowplayed by a better hand or sucked out on by a gutshot that I GAVE someone correct odds to draw to for 4 extra bets I will win less than 1/5 times.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, this is way too weak-tight. Your concept is not "out of the box" but rather shredding the box into tiny pieces and forgetting about it.

So in a NL cash table you are dealt AA in the BB and 6 people move all in before you. You can probably justify folding, right?

Haupt_234