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#11
06-19-2006, 12:16 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
Even QTs is scary, most likely a fold in common Micro Limit holdem game [/ QUOTE ] No [ QUOTE ] Thanks for the responses so far. I see I should tighten up in early position. But one more question, at the risk of sounding like a LAG - Would 3-betting this be an option if I knew the limpers behind me would fold and I could isolate? Or would that just be throwing away more money? [/ QUOTE ] and no. You're planning on 3-betting a hand that's crushed by what BB is likely raising with. That's bad for business. In fact, BB's raise behind you shows why playing this up front sucks--QTo wants to get a cheap flop, make its Q, and have top pair hold up against one or two opponents, hopefully folding them before that A comes on the turn. By playing early you have no idea how much anyone else likes their hand, giving more uncertainty than your hand can deal with. Seriously no offense you need to get ahold of a beginner's book (Internet Texas Hold'Em for example) and go though the basics, particularly as regards to preflop. You've got some concepts running around in your head that are flailing around due to a lack of foundation. 
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#12
06-19-2006, 12:17 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
Typically I would fold QT from UTG as well, but the table was loose enough that I felt it was an okay play. [/ QUOTE ] Either the table is loose enough to play QTo UTG (which I'm pretty sure it wasn't) OR calling one back to you is a question. It can't be both.
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#13
06-19-2006, 12:21 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously no offense you need to get ahold of a beginner's book (Internet Texas Hold'Em for example) and go though the basics, particularly as regards to preflop. You've got some concepts running around in your head that are flailing around due to a lack of foundation. [/ QUOTE ] None taken; I appreciate your input. But for the record, I've already read SSHE twice, Texas Hold'Em for Advanced Players twice, and I'm finishing Theory of Poker now. I've just never seen this type of situation addressed and thus don't know what to do. Edit: But I'm sure I just missed it somewhere so I'll keep reading. But I think now I understand, thanks.
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#14
06-19-2006, 12:23 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
Either the table is loose enough to play QTo UTG (which I'm pretty sure it wasn't) OR calling one back to you is a question. It can't be both. [/ QUOTE ] The table average VPIP was around 48% after 130 hands when this situation came up. How loose would you want it to be before trying to limp with this hand?
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#15
06-19-2006, 12:26 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
The table average VPIP was around 48% after 130 hands when this situation came up. How loose would you want it to be before trying to limp with this hand? [/ QUOTE ] No matter how loose the table is, I wouldn't be happy limping QTo UTG myself. From late position, it's a different story though.
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#16
06-19-2006, 12:30 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Seriously no offense you need to get ahold of a beginner's book (Internet Texas Hold'Em for example) and go though the basics, particularly as regards to preflop. You've got some concepts running around in your head that are flailing around due to a lack of foundation. [/ QUOTE ] None taken; I appreciate your input. But for the record, I've already read SSHE twice, Texas Hold'Em for Advanced Players twice, and I'm finishing Theory of Poker now. I've just never seen this type of situation addressed and thus don't know what to do. But I think now I understand, thanks. [/ QUOTE ] I may be wrong, but. It sounds like you over value some concepts like limping some hands in EP when table is loose, and trying to isolate light raisers. You seem to want to overthink or over apply these things. Don't overthink it. TOP, and HPFAP are both great books, but some players have a tendency to read them and try and get too fancy at the micros. Don't overthink it just play ABC poker and you'll make the money in the long run.
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#17
06-19-2006, 12:32 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
I've just never seen this type of situation addressed and thus don't know what to do. [/ QUOTE ] Sure you have. It's called not playing dominated hands from EP, and it's covered in every book you've read. That said, you're reading a lot of advanced texts, and the suggestion was some beginners' books...even SSH, which comes closest to applying to micro games, is going to be a little beyond you until you can explain to somebody else why limping QTo from EP is a bad idea. That's the point. [ QUOTE ] The table average VPIP was around 48% after 130 hands when this situation came up. How loose would you want it to be before trying to limp with this hand? [/ QUOTE ] It's not just looose, it also has to be passive. But, really, QTo is too weak to play; maybe if you'd been at the table, without seats turning over, for 300 or so hands and hadn't seen a single preflop raise and 6-7 players to the flop every hand. And if that's the case I might raise it UTG preflop.
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#18
06-19-2006, 12:34 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Seriously no offense you need to get ahold of a beginner's book (Internet Texas Hold'Em for example) and go though the basics, particularly as regards to preflop. You've got some concepts running around in your head that are flailing around due to a lack of foundation. [/ QUOTE ] None taken; I appreciate your input. But for the record, I've already read SSHE twice, Texas Hold'Em for Advanced Players twice, and I'm finishing Theory of Poker now. I've just never seen this type of situation addressed and thus don't know what to do. Edit: But I'm sure I just missed it somewhere so I'll keep reading. But I think now I understand, thanks. [/ QUOTE ] You need to re-read for understanding then. Probably just SSHE. What value does QTo have? How is that good for UTG? How is that good for 3-betting a LP raiser? QTo has low high card value with ok kicker value if the board comes T high. QTo has ok straight value but it is one gapper so it won't make as many straights as QJo or KQo. QTo has virtually no flush power. I can't imagine that SSHE ever suggests playing QTo outside of a blind, let alone from UTG so you missed that pre-flop discussion and missed the importance of position. Limp raising with QTo is a horrible idea. The only way it would be less horrible is if you knew how to play it post-flop, but from your post it is clear that you are still learning pre-flop concepts. Find a good pre-flop chart and follow it religiously until you know you don't have to anymore.
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#19
06-19-2006, 12:35 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
Grunch:
Fold preflop. QTo is just too weak from that position. Your dilemma facing a raise just illustrates why it so feeble.
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#20
06-19-2006, 12:35 PM
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Re: Limping PF then facing raise from right
[ QUOTE ]
I may be wrong, but. It sounds like you over value some concepts like limping some hands in EP when table is loose, and trying to isolate light raisers. You seem to want to overthink or over apply these things. Don't overthink it. TOP, and HPFAP are both great books, but some players have a tendency to read them and try and get too fancy at the micros. Don't overthink it just play ABC poker and you'll make the money in the long run. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're right, I probably am one of those players. Thanks for the good advice, I'll lose the tricks and play more straightforward.
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