NL25, QQ preflop, should I push??

[Splossy]

You could probably widen the range a fair bit more to be honest. I'll 3 bet with way worse hands on the button against weak PF bets like that.

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MY standard is to CALL and CRAI on an all under flop...I do not like to 4 bet QQ at this level...A 4 bet will committ you to call if button shoves most likely facing AA or KK...

[/ QUOTE ]

But this way you are still stacking off vs AA and KK and give button to catch up with an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

YES we are stacking off to AA/KK either way..BUT we extract more value when ahead..We extract a C-bet from an UI AK or an under pair that 3 bet "light"..Downside is if he would call a shove with with AK or JJ/TT..Absent a read these hands most likely fold to shove...If we 4 bet what do you think button calling/shoving range is???

Now if button is a freguent "light" 3 better I will 4 bet to ISO the short stack...

[/ QUOTE ]

imo the problem with trying to extract value from viallain and let him cbet is that he´s going to turn his 1010 or JJ into a bluff on a 28A board and you said you´d fold. I see what you are mean when saying his 4 bet calling range has us crushed... against a habitual 3 bettor this is as you have said easy but against the avarage 25NL player you have a huge disadvantage here being oop.
I think 4betting to exactly 12$ is an interesting scenario b/c in this situation button can´t call. he either has to push or fold knowing that bb is likely to shove b/c he´s a shorty and his pushing range is kind of wide.

[KEW]

If we 4 bet to $12 why not just shove??? IMO we can't fold to a shove after putting in 50% of effective stacks..If we do 4 bet to $12 and get called(most likely by both if button calls) we would be pushing AI on any flop...

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]
If we 4 bet to $12 why not just shove??? IMO we can't fold to a shove after putting in 50% of effective stacks..If we do 4 bet to $12 and get called(most likely by both if button calls) we would be pushing AI on any flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

but that is not what ia was talking about

[KEW]

"turn his 1010 or JJ into a bluff on a 28A board and you said you´d fold."

.
.
.
Most likely fold???? I'll have to re-read what I said and how I worded it...The reason for the fold is the A/K on the flop greatly changes his range(and ours) that will proceed..Yes we will be bluffed off the best hand sometimes..But we ONLY invest $3 and that's the power of position...Also in this hand the button would be even more unlikley to be bluffing in "semi-protected" pot with the short BB still in there..

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we 4 bet to $12 why not just shove??? IMO we can't fold to a shove after putting in 50% of effective stacks..If we do 4 bet to $12 and get called(most likely by both if button calls) we would be pushing AI on any flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

but that is not what ia was talking about

[/ QUOTE ]

What did I miss understand???

By the call and CRAI I am trying to get more value when we are ahead and lose the same when we are beaten..We lose our stack vs AA/KK either way..AK will only hit the flop about about 33%(even less for AQ/AJs) and a underpair 1 time in 8 to flop a set..Both these hands will c-bet nearly 100% of the time...

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]
"turn his 1010 or JJ into a bluff on a 28A board and you said you´d fold."

.
.
.
Most likely fold???? I'll have to re-read what I said and how I worded it...The reason for the fold is the A/K on the flop greatly changes his range(and ours) that will proceed..Yes we will be bluffed off the best hand sometimes..But we ONLY invest $3 and that's the power of position...Also in this hand the button would be even more unlikley to be bluffing in "semi-protected" pot with the short BB still in there..

[/ QUOTE ]


well you still let button catch up with hands like AK, AQ etc.
and btw you were right about how stupid 4 betting to 12 would be. with 250bb stacks this would be interesting though.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"turn his 1010 or JJ into a bluff on a 28A board and you said you´d fold."

.
.
.
Most likely fold???? I'll have to re-read what I said and how I worded it...The reason for the fold is the A/K on the flop greatly changes his range(and ours) that will proceed..Yes we will be bluffed off the best hand sometimes..But we ONLY invest $3 and that's the power of position...Also in this hand the button would be even more unlikley to be bluffing in "semi-protected" pot with the short BB still in there..

[/ QUOTE ]


well you still let button catch up with hands like AK, AQ etc.
and btw you were right about how stupid 4 betting to 12 would be. with 250bb stacks this would be interesting though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Deeper I think I would certainly 4 bet..I think button range would be even wider and I certainly would not CRAI an all under flop that deep..

[Waingro]

I like a 4bet to isolate vs shorty. His calling range is probably vv wide. Shorty is probably just going to cf most flops he misses but might pursuaded to pay more to see a flop.