Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold

[chicagoY]

Gold's run was the luckiest I've ever seen.

[[Phill]]

No one holds the chip lead in a tourney for for day purely on luck.

Sure he got lucky at times, but his playing style meant he had a huge stack that could absorb losses.

[7n7]

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I found one post where someone stated that Lederer talks about 1/4 of a big bet as being a good win rate.

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Let me fill you in on a little dirty secret about the big game, disinformation is necessary to preserve the game. If the producers in the big game discover they are the producers, then there will be no producers - hence they are hyped up and sold to the world as experts in their specialty fields. Think about it... some of the "best players in the world" are not as good as they think, and win rates are not what people think they are (High Stakes Poker has been a great eye opener to many, its a very good example). Just ask David Grey, David Oppenheim, or David Benyamin if they are making more than a big bet/hour - you will likely get a very different answer than what is assumed by many of us.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I assumed nothing, I just quoted...that's my dirty little secret. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

As for comparing the performance of some of the pros on HSP to their likely performance in the big game, I have my opinion on that as well (and it likely differs from yours), but that's for another thread.

Hasta!

[SpaceJanitor]

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What do you mean kissing Raymer's butt? He certainly isn't a novice. The guy's a great player and DEFINITELY does not deserve to be lumped in Gold.

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Gold obviously is not a likable person, but being lucky doesn't necessarily mean someone is a donk either.

[Cactus Jack]

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Again, 1-2 BB's/100 is probably not happening for Raymer at 400-800 live

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I suggest you check your sources, mine tell me otherwise. And considering that I have experienced Greg's rotation cash game play first hand and I also know from first hand experience how god awful the competition can sometimes be at those levels (another shocker, some of the biggest names in the game are actually rotation donks) I'm rather positive he is killing those games.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I have no doubt about this, either. The one thing that has always impressed me about Raymer is he's a student of the game. He worked his way into the position he's in, today. He didn't luckbox into it. If he's in a game on a regular basis, he's doing well in it. That's just his way of doing things, I believe.

Daniel has been doing this for years. I like his game, and love to watch him play. But his reputation has always been he will tilt in public with some of his disagreements, esp on r.g.p. going back for more than a decade. No surprise, but I also think given the very small quotation in this instance, it wasn't exactly as he meant it.

Sorry, but at this point I have absolutely NO respect for Gold's game or his ability to represent the game in any positive way, shape or form.

[MrFizzbin]

I just think its sad the 2 Pro's who are both so good for the game keep taking shots at each other. I know Daniel started it with the sweaty man boobs thing awhile back but this is just silly. They both need thicker skins and let this go, either that or they can both grab 100K man up at a table and play a rotation game where each one picks 3 games and play to the death.

[BarryLyndon]

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From his forum:

"Joe is a good player. The best WSOP champ since Carlos Mortensen, and I don't think it's close. Moneymaker is a PlayBoy now, Raymer is too wild and is prone the Matusow blow up, and Jamie bluffs too much and would get hurt against good players. Joe, on the other hand, is from the same school I'm from, the school of small ball. Other players using a similar approach include:

Phil Ivey
Gus Hansen
Erick Lindgren
Michael Mizrachi
Nam Le
Tuan Le
Phil Hellmuth

Those players that get it all in with 66 pre-flop too often:

Greg Raymer
Chris Ferguson
Howard Lederer
Andy Bloch
Phil Gordon
Phil Laak
Erik Seidel

The school that I went to will allow you to win more consistently in WPT events. The other approach is very good for less skillful events like the $1500 buy in events at the WSOP. Jamie Gold actually went to our school too, but does a few things differently.


It is simply not a coincidence that the players who do well on the WPT take the small ball approach. The other approach is far too kamikaze to win consistently as they get their money in bad far too often for very large amounts. You can suckout sometimes, but if you routinely play large pots in coin flip situations you can't get there too often. In five seasons on the WPT, if you compare this small list to each other you'd see a significant difference in success."


http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-fo...t&p=1603498

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I don't see why any of this renders Daniel an overly judgmental/bitter person. He has an opinion that is justified by evidence and he's backing it up. His evidence is not results orientated, but rather, is based on who is getting his money with the best overall expectation.

[Daliman]

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Daliman,

Are you familiar at all with the mixed game Raymer is playing in? Like... the usual games they play?

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Not exceptionally, but I'm pretty sure it at least includes HORSE and Badugi, plus maybe a few others.

Not sure the relevance of the Q, though.

[Daliman]

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Daliman,

"Having a .5BB/100 would be phenomenal achievement in the big game, and barring more than 1 big fish in the game at a time, very likely the absolute MOST that could be won with the games they play and the speed with which they play them."

How does the speed with which a game is played impact the win rate per hundred hands?

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As you probably should have realized and is readily apparent by my wording, I meant per hour, not per 100 hands. I know how fun, and even easy at times, it is for you to skewer me, so enjoy.

[Daniel Negreanu]

Alan Goering is a small baller to the extreme pre-flop. He routinely raises the minimum on a regular basis.