Ftp stole my money

[fluorescenthippo]

OP,

YSSCKY

[mjkidd]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore... this example illustrates how Full-Tilt Poker may be ENCOURAGING cheating... follow me here for a minute

I finance my account through a fraud credit card and dump to my friend... my friend can play gorilla poker with no risk (it's not really his money and apparently FTP doesn't care what he doesn until he tries to empty the account).

If he loses... great...

If he wins, and snaps off legit players for real money, he cashes out.

Now FTP freezes his account and keeps the money for themselves. The money doesn't get credited back to the losing player (the real ones)... and FTP doesn't have to refund the credit card companies (that is all covered by the cc companies under the fraud protection act).

This is a really CRAPPY way of doing business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless most credit card fraudsters are better than average poker players, this strategy has a negative expectation. Do you see why?

[Bicycles_Biatch]

I appreciate Dougs research... but I really feel that whether Eric is a moron or a cheat... this process illustrates how FTP is not looking out for us (check out my two posts from above)...

i won't be playing there.

[RayPowers]

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and FTP doesn't have to refund the credit card companies (that is all covered by the cc companies under the fraud protection act).

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This part is not true.

Ray

[Synergistic Explosions]

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That is an impressive amount to defraud them out of in only a few days. What's the secret?

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I'd still enjoy reading your answer to this question.

[suzzer99]

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He's really just trying to say something like, "find out what it was I supposedly did" or something like that.

I don't think this semantical stuff shows much about his guilt one way or another.

FTPDoug's proof and timeline of events obviously does though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it now looks highly highly likely OP is guilty as sin. But I do feel like Columbo here as in "oh and just one more thing...". In reality all FTPDoug has said is 7 accounts chip dumped to eric. This is closer to "proof" than just using the word "fraud", but still isn't really there. I'm not demanding raw HHs or anything, but it would settle my mind a little to know, in general, how they establish "chip dumping" beyond a reasonable doubt in their minds.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore... this example illustrates how Full-Tilt Poker may be ENCOURAGING cheating... follow me here for a minute

I finance my account through a fraud credit card and dump to my friend... my friend can play gorilla poker with no risk (it's not really his money and apparently FTP doesn't care what he doesn until he tries to empty the account).

If he loses... great...

If he wins, and snaps off legit players for real money, he cashes out.

Now FTP freezes his account and keeps the money for themselves. The money doesn't get credited back to the losing player (the real ones)... and FTP doesn't have to refund the credit card companies (that is all covered by the cc companies under the fraud protection act).

This is a really CRAPPY way of doing business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless most credit card fraudsters are better than average poker players, this strategy has a negative expectation. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I do... but if I told you that you could play the lottery with stolen money... wouldn't you at least give it a shot a few times a year???

What I'm saying that these people aren't geniuses to begin with... if they think they can take a $600 theft and run it up to $14K... they are going to try it.

Since FTP doesn't seem to care until you cash out... why not try once in a while... meanwhile... you and I suffer everytime a theif snabs off our AA with 6-2 offsuit.

[ALLEN BOND]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I believe I've got this sorted out. Here's the timeline as I understand it:

On 9/1 Eric created an account and made a deposit. Over the next 5 days he was the recipient of chip dumping from 7 different accounts, all later confirmed to be involved in credit card fraud. While this chip dumping was going on, he was also playing in legitimate games (and losing the combined fraudulent money). By 9/6 he was broke on this account and was at his current deposit limit, so he created the account he posted about ("rapperson").



[/ QUOTE ]

What is going to happen to the funds which Eric lost after being dumped? Will the unsuspecting players suffer or will they simply benefit? Or the thread ends as the money leaves Eric's pocket (even if illegally obtained).

It all boils down to the point of easy as 1-2-3, PLAY POKER RIGHT NOW.

I play on FTP daily and I love the site. However, my 5 year old brother can sign up and play Poker there with my Dad's credit card.

FTP needs to impose strictest security measures regarding deposits. Fax ID + copies of credit cards, utility bill etc.

Cash outs will take care of themselves.

But in reality, do they really care of some fraud here and there? No. They would like everyone to sign up and deposit RIGHT NOW!

[Bicycles_Biatch]

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[ QUOTE ]
and FTP doesn't have to refund the credit card companies (that is all covered by the cc companies under the fraud protection act).

[/ QUOTE ]

This part is not true.

Ray

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe most fraud (even credit card) but definately with services like Netteller absolves Fulltilt from ever having to issue a refund. That is why we pay fees to netteller or 3rd party vendors that process credit card transactions.

I think if we could look at their books (of course this will never happen)... Fulltilt is keeping all this confiscated money and definately not returning it to the legit players who were fleeced.

[chube]

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So let me get this straight... the money he "apparently" received from chip dumpers he immediately lost back to legit players in the FTP network.

However... when he went on a rush and won a legit $14K... he was banned?

Based on your explanation I'm concerned about several things...

1) Why wasn't he recognized as a cheater when he was actually recieving "confirmed" stolen funds???


[/ QUOTE ]

They were "confirmed" well after the fact, not in real time.

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2) Why wait for him to withdraw money before doing and investigation???



[/ QUOTE ]

Something has to trigger the investigation, and one of those things is rapidly withdrawing large amounts of funds.

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3) Why allow him to open a 2nd account to begin with if you had proof that his first account was conducting fraud???


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, the time frame was very close together. The first account wasn't investigated just yet.

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4) Doesn't this chain of events show Eric to be more of a un-suspecting moron... not a colluding genius??? I mean, he LOST the money that was dumped to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

He got greedy. You don't have to be a genius to collude. I would add this up to "colluding moron".

[ QUOTE ]



5) I'm VERY CONCERNED that FTP doesn't really care about the safety of their games or their honest customers UNTIL money is exiting their site. As an outsider looking in... this really sucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that is just ONE of the triggers for an investigation. Others probably include player's reporting suspicious activity and pattern mapping, but that is the easiest red flag.

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Basically FTP is saying that you can collude, chip dump, cheat honest players... and then when you go to cash out... we are going to confiscate your money.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all what I read into this.

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Overall, I think maybe FTP doesn't truly have a grasp on how many Cheaters and Credit Card fraud players are out there just to gamble it up and play poker on someone elses dime.

I'm think it's possible (maybe not likely)... but definately possible that Eric Jones got screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Possible, maybe, but there is obviously more to the evidence than what we are presented. Did they all sit down at the same time, etc....