Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb - Page 18

JMAnon · #**171** 10-21-2007, 10:35 AM

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There isn't a genetic intelligence gap. The intelligence is pretty much exactly the same when measured in v/ young children.

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I wouldn't take one study and start quoting it as gospel, if I were you. I think the study is interesting, but much, much more work needs to be done to confirm your broad statement. For example, it is possible that IQ tests of 1-year olds are inexact or fail to capture some aspect of g that doesn't manifest until a few years later. I don't know enough about them to offer an opinion one way or the other. Also, the study could be wrong or have a methodological flaw. I would be careful about taking the results of one unpublished study and using it to make sweeping statements of fact.

tame_deuces · #**172** 10-21-2007, 10:39 AM

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There isn't a genetic intelligence gap. The intelligence is pretty much exactly the same when measured in v/ young children.

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I wouldn't take one study and start quoting it as gospel, if I were you. I think the study is interesting, but much, much more work needs to be done to confirm your broad statement. For example, it is possible that IQ tests of 1-year olds are inexact or fail to capture some aspect of g that doesn't manifest until a few years later. I don't know enough about them to offer an opinion one way or the other. Also, the study could be wrong or have a methodological flaw. I would be careful about taking the results of one unpublished study and using it to make sweeping statements of fact.

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Yet the fact that the intelligence measure is hotly debated, not universally accepted, perhaps methodologically flawed and in some branches (cognitive neuroscience and artificial intelligence research) seen as bad way of measuring intelligence bothers noone...

Intelligence tests measure cultural phenomena, believe it or not they have to be _adjusted_ to fit different cultures around the world.

tame_deuces · #**173** 10-21-2007, 10:47 AM

To use an 'example of extreme': How would you go about measuring the intelligence of the first person to use the wheel?

Fly · #**174** 10-21-2007, 11:30 AM

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1) Do you think that believing in an intelligence gap based partially in genetics makes someone a bigot?

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There isn't a genetic intelligence gap. The intelligence is pretty much exactly the same when measured in v/ young children.

If anything, if you believe in the intelligence measures (g factor etc) and you trust the research that has found differences then the only explanation left is cultural difference and/or inequality in treatment.

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Why don't you answer the question that was asked?

tame_deuces · #**175** 10-21-2007, 11:35 AM

No, I don't think it makes them a bigot - 'racial' difference in intelligence is a good question. It has just been answered very badly.

Phil153 · #**176** 10-21-2007, 11:36 AM

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andy,

1) Do you think that believing in an intelligence gap based partially in genetics makes someone a bigot?

2) Do you understand that it is possible to be a (true) bigot and still be right (sometimes)?

3) Stop killing the messenger.

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There isn't a genetic intelligence gap. The intelligence is pretty much exactly the same when measured in v/ young children.

If anything, if you believe in the intelligence measures (g factor etc) and you trust the research that has found differences then the only explanation left is cultural difference and/or inequality in treatment.

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This is an idiotic statement, and you're not an idiot. Can you tell me why?

tame_deuces · #**177** 10-21-2007, 11:39 AM

I don't see the reason for semantics. APA itself, which you used earlier, looks upon cultural differences as the best explanations for 'ethnic' differences in intelligence - stating that the 'genetic theories' are not solid enough.

andyfox · #**178** 10-21-2007, 11:41 AM

1) Do you think that believing in an intelligence gap based partially in genetics makes someone a bigot?

No. But I also believe that being a bigot makes it more likely to believe that genetics causes an intelligence gap.

2) Do you understand that it is possible to be a (true) bigot and still be right (sometimes)?

Sure. But it makes it less likely that the bigot is right about a matter of race because his objectivity is suspect.

3) Stop killing the messenger.

If his message was that my research shows X and here is why, it would be one thing. I'm commenting on his message that blacks are stupider than other people as anyone who has to work with them already knows.

Phil153 · #**179** 10-21-2007, 11:41 AM

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You are badly misstating the general opinion of psychologists IMO. I did some serious reading on this topic and even the American Psychological Association has stated that IQ tests measure g quite accurately, and the differences between cultural groups can not be attributed to cultural biases (between all of their apologetics, of course)

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This is pretty meaningless though. Even if IQ tests measure g quite accurately, what is g a measure of? That is where the debate lies. I hate it when people appeal to authority, but I must admit that I'm currently in a Psychology PhD program right now and I would like to think that I have a slightly better handle on the general opinion of most research psychologists considering that I talk to them and read their research every day.

Would you mind linking me to where you read the APA statement that you are referring to?

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The APA website is huge - I remember reading the statement very clearly, but can't find it unfortunately. Here's an indication of what I'm talking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_in...chometric_tests

tame_deuces · #**180** 10-21-2007, 11:46 AM

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You are badly misstating the general opinion of psychologists IMO. I did some serious reading on this topic and even the American Psychological Association has stated that IQ tests measure g quite accurately, and the differences between cultural groups can not be attributed to cultural biases (between all of their apologetics, of course)

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This is pretty meaningless though. Even if IQ tests measure g quite accurately, what is g a measure of? That is where the debate lies. I hate it when people appeal to authority, but I must admit that I'm currently in a Psychology PhD program right now and I would like to think that I have a slightly better handle on the general opinion of most research psychologists considering that I talk to them and read their research every day.

Would you mind linking me to where you read the APA statement that you are referring to?

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The APA website is huge - I remember reading the statement very clearly, but can't find it unfortunately. Here's an indication of what I'm talking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_in...chometric_tests

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Yeah, the problem is what Taraz said and which I said earlier. What does G measure?

We know it correlates well with school results, which leads many to believe schools results and measures of G measures _pretty much the same thing_ - and not intelligence.

In physics it would be like measuring the speed of a car, putting it into an advanced statistical formula and getting the speed of a car, and then yelling eureka - we have found the perfect thing to figure out the speed of a car with.

And this is not uncommon debate in the psychology field, our measured variables are by definition often more 'hazy' than in the nature sciences.