Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?

[mbpoker]

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Lee Jones also advocates a future where one time disposable user IDs are the norm.


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Lee did state clearly that these are his views not representing Stars.

[ShaneP]

ape,

Jacob did give a reason here why it was worded the way it was--he said the original transfer was reversed, and another transfer (the correct one) was made. He said something about why does the OP need to see yet another name, etc...and it could seem a bit confusing if one's looking at transactions I'd guess. seeing one made then reversed probably reminds people what happened (or they can guess if they didn't originally notice).

So you could imagine the OP and what she could come up with if it was sent to another person. I've dealt with people like that a ton, and it's amazing what little things they can latch onto when their arguments are refuted left and right.

Two other comments--PS new policy about tourney/SnG results seems to be just an extension of their already existing policy of having data only from hands you've played--similar to B+M. I can't remember all the data for doing nothing as opposed to opting out, but it seemed to be with that spirit in mind. While it's not as egregious as a database of all hands player X has played (or datamining), it still gives someone a fair amount of information they didn't collect themselves through play.

And secondly, let's get Johan some runs!

Shane

[apefish]

Whether or not that idea remains one Stars never acts on, the fact is that it is a move for the same general reason as the new data policy.

My post was about keeping a critical eye on things that are being done/could be done and the implications/complications of them.

I assume you wouldn't dispute that moves designed to help keep a player more anonymous/slow his loss rate like Lee's suggestion would go against many stated policies Stars have enforced for years.

That's all I was saying.

[apefish]

[ QUOTE ]
I've dealt with people like that a ton, and it's amazing what little things they can latch onto when their arguments are refuted left and right.

Two other comments--PS new policy about tourney/SnG results seems to be just an extension of their already existing policy of having data only from hands you've played--similar to B+M. I can't remember all the data for doing nothing as opposed to opting out, but it seemed to be with that spirit in mind. While it's not as egregious as a database of all hands player X has played (or datamining), it still gives someone a fair amount of information they didn't collect themselves through play.

And secondly, let's get Johan some runs!

Shane

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely agree with the first part.

Second paragraph somewhat fails for me because they left in place an option to "be observed" if one wants to be. Clearly that means they only care if the player cares. In fact thats my biggest criticism of the new policy- they could have said "look we don't allow third party collection". But they didn't. It's almost as if you could hear the debate behind the policy... "yeah but wow are some regulars going to hate this... hey... let's compromise".
If you do nothing under the policy, any site that gives profitability information about you is in violation. There are clearly some other usable parts of data, but the biggest impact is that people cannot as easily identify the biggest losers/winners any more. That benefits many players who would never look at the data at the harm of those who will use whatever is available. That is very consistent with parts of what Lee Jones has written about rebalancing the eco-system.
I am not even saying the move is necessarily wrong. I do see flaws with parts of it though.
It seemed at least tangentially relevant to mention it in a thread where it was revealed that Stars has a policy that some don't know about where they use human judgment at times to make decisions about things that seem otherwise in the t&c and or the actual transfer section of the software.

I am all for the transfer policy error remedy mentioned by Jacob. I believe that Stars is the leader in the industry in their approach to dealing with their players.
It's possible Stars feels the new data policy is a common sense approach to a situation they had a hard time finding an answer for.
But saying "we think it's best for the game" has to be critically analyzed every step of the way primarily because we assume they are a business acting rationally to improve their bottom line.
This is why I am pointing out when it's still not an obvious issue yet that I think Lee's proposal for a disposable user ID, which was sort of piggybacked in with the same elimination of trackable data on players in his writing (here are Lee's words which echo some statements made by Stars on the data policy "So this information is being used as ammunition by clueless idiots whose egos make them put down other players, at the cost of civility, the quality of the game, etc. Yet another reason to make the information go away.") is one that should be scrutinized prior to any site considering it and within the context of the issues it was proposed to solve.

I think asking ahead of time how it would conflict with policies Stars has been very clear and adamant about for years is very appropriate considering it is in the same general grouping of problems/remedies as the data collection policy.

As for Johan- it appears he will end up with the same type of season I predicted for Gil Meche when he signed with KC. A won/ loss record way below expectation for his actual numbers. sigh.

peace.

[sashaben]

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I'm not sure about USA banks but here is Australia, if the funds have cleared, you can keep it.

If the orginal person complains, all the bank can do is ring you up and ask you to send it back. If you say no they're not allowed to do anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Liar: http://www.bfso.org.au/abioweb/ABIOWebSi...Bulletin+52.pdf


Also, OP, like the person I just quoted, is a moron. The idea that a mistake cannot be corrected is absurd.

You clearly are not good at life.

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I didn't read the 10 or so pages in between..
But to follow up, you are wrong in the case of the banking error.
If someone puts money in you account, the bank is not allowed to reverse it without your permission. If you want to be a jerk, then you can keep it.

Whether or not poker stars is allowed to do it, I guess they can judging from the T&C.

So please don't call me a moron.
Thank You

[ShaneP]

I see what you're saying about the PS data collection stuff. From what I've read, I'm surprised I don't have to turn around three times (clockwise) to opt in or out...It does seem to be fairly convoluded, which is one thing I'm not particularly enamored with.

And I'm also agreed with the 'best interests of the game' concerns you mentioned. Especially since some moves will be in the best interests of one, while not in the interests of another, and there's no obvious metric to measure which is better overall. That's kind of why I like their general stance of trying as much to mimic a B+M as possible.

Personally I'm indifferent about the tournament stats--if I look them up, it's mostly out of interest (or seeing if there's irony because someone berating someone else has a -ROI). I'd hate to have movable user names just because someone might remember someone else and say something mean. It just changes things too much for the possible minimal benefit. There's already a lack of information from tells online, and to have previous knowledge about a player who you've played before not available anymore seems totally wrong.

[Josem]

[ QUOTE ]
didn't read the 10 or so pages in between..
But to follow up, you are wrong in the case of the banking error.
If someone puts money in you account, the bank is not allowed to reverse it without your permission. If you want to be a jerk, then you can keep it.

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No, that is not accurate.

If someone mistakenly gives you money, except under the situations described above as they relate to the US (ie, if you receive money and act on it), you have no right to retain this.

Unfortunately, it takes a court case to assert those rights currently, as only a court can override a banks mandate to not allow third party withdrawals on an account.

More detail is online at http://www.bfso.org.au/abioweb/ABIOWebSi...99?OpenDocument and http://www.bfso.org.au/abioweb/ABIOWebSi...40?OpenDocument

You certainly have no right to keep money that you know is not yours. There is no doubt about this.

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Whether or not poker stars is allowed to do it, I guess they can judging from the T&C.

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No, it has nothing to do with the T&Cs of PokerStars. A poker account simply is not protected by the concept of mandating withdrawals as it applies to bank accounts.

There is certainly no possibility that an account with PokerStars is anything close to a bank account - it's no different to an account with any other non-banking service provider.

It is extraordinary to believe that any country in the world (let alone the Isle of Man!) would consider a poker site to be a bank and therefore subject to international banking conventions.

It is extraordinary to believe that banking conventions governing withdrawal mandates, which apply to <u>banks</u> and banks only, would apply to accounts with non-bank organisations.

[ QUOTE ]
So please don't call me a moron.
Thank You

[/ QUOTE ]
While the exact legal liability is unclear in the Australian banking system, is is moronic to believe that:
a) money wrongly deposited into your account is yours to do as you wish*
and
b) poker accounts are protected by the banking concept of requiring properly mandated withdrawals.

I'm happy to concede that you are not a moron. I'm sorry for that.

*except if you reasonably acted on the belief that it was, which is clearly not the case in this situation



BTW - Why are people discussing PokerStars Data Policy in a thread about account withdrawals? This seems to have no relevance here

[apefish]

[ QUOTE ]
ape,

Jacob did give a reason here why it was worded the way it was--he said the original transfer was reversed, and another transfer (the correct one) was made. He said something about why does the OP need to see yet another name, etc

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Thanks for pointing this out also. I had missed his second reply in the thread.
Obviously now I expect OP to use my inquiry into that against me/stars/ as per your other point even though I've now said "ah yes I missed that and it makes sense".

I assume Jacob is saying the person requesting the remedy never has access to the actual funds again although it appears as a reveral/gets immediately forwarded to the intended party.

Anything involving the sender having to resubmit the send would open up potential scams.



Josem,
"BTW - Why are people discussing PokerStars Data Policy in a thread about account withdrawals? This seems to have no relevance here"

i brought it up and will take any heat on the derailment. I think it had just enough purpose to mention it.
The thread is no more about "account withdrawals" than it is policies in place or not in place at PokerStars that people may not know about it.
In that context I brought it up as another instance of "common sense" possibly trumping vaguely written t&amp;cs at times.

As far as I am concerned I said what I wanted to about it and have left it behind.

[sashaben]

It seems that we are agreeing with each other except you are adding an extra bit on info which I didn't mention.

The bank can not make you give it back which is what I said and is true.

The court can make you give it back which is what you said and is true and I agree with.

I remember a case though were someone put money into wrong persons account.
Then the bank wouldn't give up their info so the orginal person could contact them to get their money back because of privacy laws etc.

I was also agreeing that poker sites are not like banks, sorry for being unclear.

[That Foreign Guy]

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as far as i can see people beatching that ps rocks and stuff are players who are allready playing for them and I wouldnt even know if these posters are ps themselves trying to convince people that they acted appropriately on this matter....if i was a new player I would greatly consider even 1 post where someone believe that ps have acted improperly and definetely look at other alternatives as well...

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Yeah, PokerStars hired a bunch of shills up to 5 years ago to make thousands of posts on the 2p2 forums JUST IN CASE you decided to irrationally start complaining about something.

Dude, this thread used to be funny. Now it (you) is just pathetic.