Going All In Before The Flop....

[creative]

lol at op

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
at the beginning of a tournament in a multi-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]I still do not understand this. This is passing up on a major edge. Certainly you have a good chance to lose the tournament by calling here. You ALSO have a good chance of losing the tournament by passing up large edges (which you have here). In the case of calling with AA, you actually have a good chance of WINNING the tournament.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that most people on this board are content to follow the basic accepted rules of poker and not evolve beyond that.

[/ QUOTE ]It is true that this board views poker through a +EV/-EV lense. The reason for this is that +EV/-EV decisions are fundamental to gambling. Ignoring them is to gamble poorly. This is more than a fundamental assumption; it is logically provable mathematcially. If you suggest that we throw out +EV/-EV from our point of view when discussing an issue, you might as well argue that 2+2=5.

[ QUOTE ]
Many of you have stated that poker is just about math.

[/ QUOTE ]Once again, this is NOT TRUE. I think there were two posters who suggested this, and one even clarified his stance to state that "math" includes the information gathering process.

Now if you are saying that NL HE is NOT AT ALL about math then you will find many who disagree. But your statement is false regarding what has been said in this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
It has been said that limit poker is a science and that no limit is an art. If this is true, which I believe it is the math argument can be thrown out the window.

[/ QUOTE ]You throw math out the window at your own peril. Every decision comes down to what is mathematically profitable (+EV/-EV); the issue with NL is that the margin for error is drastic and there is a much greater need/opportunity for gathering information and exploiting the information you do gather. But once you gather the information, your decision still comes down to making EV profitable decisions- or "math".

[Jeff76]

Oh, and ment to respond to this since you've stated it many times and it's been ignored:
[ QUOTE ]
why isn’t there a computer program that can play championship poker?

[/ QUOTE ]Because computer programs are terrible at gathering all the information available and then being designed to make correct mathematical decisions. Poker is more than knowing the odds of making a flush with two cards to come. You have to have some idea of the value of that flush in the current hand. And this comes down to making a lot of logical assumptions based on partial information. It is very difficult (though not impossible) to write computer programs to do this. They will play perfect poker with perfect information, but unfortunatly they (nor do we) ever have that.

This, however, does not make poker a "non-math" game. It just illustrates the importance of gathering information and being able to extrapolate conclusions where that information is incomplete. These are things that mathemeticians do all the time (and at which computer programs mostly suck).

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]

AA against lets say KK, 89s, and 10Jo is only going to win about 51% of the time. A coin flip..not worth going all in the first hand of a tournament for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'm going to flip a coin - heads I win, tails you win. If heads comes up, you pay me $10. If tails comes up, I pay you $40. Would you pass this wager up? No?

That's exactly what you just did by passing up your Aces in the example you gave. You have no clue how to play poker.

[beenben]

umm b.s.

umm paragraphs

umm this topic has been previously discussed ad nauseum

please go away troll.

[seke2]

OP, you suck. (This comment mostly directed at your inability to press the enter key)

Also, if you think your thread is the first time anyone has tried to convince us that folding AA in a weird non-sat/bubble/$EV is a good idea, you're horribly, totally wrong.

Please keep "making the rules" of poker that involve playing horrible sub-optimally, and please introduce yourself if you ever get to play with any of us.

[TFGoose]

[ QUOTE ]
The question wasn’t should I fold AA, before the flop? The question was should I EVER fold AA before the flop? Some people took the question as a joke, some said you should never fold AA pre-flop. Others just posted insults.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot the few people who gave very well-written, factual arguments to disprove your theories.

[ QUOTE ]

My question was designed to find the 1 or 2 situations where you might not play AA. The only answers that should have come up are if you are at the final table and on the bubble to make the money or to move up in earning, or as I have stated at the beginning of a tournament in a multi-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]



--TFGoose

[seke2]

[ QUOTE ]
The only answers that should have come up are if you are at the final table and on the bubble to make the money or to move up in earning

[/ QUOTE ]
TF, OP is not totally off base there, it just requires really weird stack size dynamics, but there can be non-sat situations where folding AA is correct from an $EV perspective. Obviously it's always wrong from a cEV perspective, but very rarely you could find (or construct) a situation where folding AA is right.

[TFGoose]

Agreed seke2, I'm just guessing from the tone of the rest of his posts that he isn't considering those miracle situations as the only time to fold. I could be wrong, but reading that just put me over the edge... sorry. I should stop posting in this thread anymore as I'm just getting more frustrated by the minute. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

--TFGoose

[adanthar]

blah blah blah blah chow meow x2 this worthless thread now has almost as many replies as everything else on the first page combined

therefore I hereby decree it to be about fgators