NL Bots on Full Tilt

[Kuso]

the noise level is high in this thread...

could someone extremely familiar with the thread tease out the "major" posts (esp. the ones from op, ft, the accused, etc.) and put them in a separate thread.

thanks in advance.

[nation]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read the whole thread? I accused them of being bots, and they defended themselves with a cover story of being a team.

Also, if you weren't aware they were playing as a team, how did you explain to yourself why they never sat at the same tables. Did you not notice?

[/ QUOTE ]

trebek,

this is a classic case of selective memory. They have several thousand hands that they played together accidentally when they didn't realize they were at the same table. When the accounts were locked, Chuck was very worried about this, even though there was no collusion. He was worried the playing from same IP would be bad.

FTP looked at the hands and cleared his account and gave ALL funds back. I believe I posted this earlier in the thread. Regardless, you should stop continuing to say that they never played at the same table, hence they must be bots.

[Gydyon]

After I indicated I was moving on because I was concerned about this issue:

Hello XXX,

Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.

Please understand that Full Tilt Poker cannot close an account simply
based on what a player has said. We do take this accusation extremely
seriously, we needed to investigate this matter ourselves and as stated
in the 2+2 forum "we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting
either determination."

It is easy to read the thread by "SukitTrebek " and immediately jump to
the conclusion that these are bots. Full Tilt Poker does not have that
luxury; we must investigate the matter thoroughly and view the situation
from both sides, without a bias opinion.

I understand your frustration with this issue and you are obviously not
alone in this, many people feel the way you do. Our intention is to find
out the facts and do what is just, many players may disagree, but we
stand by our investigation and statement. If new developments should
arise they will be dealt with.

I thank you for writing in and encourage you to keep watching the
threads.

On behalf of Full Tilt Poker, I wish you the best of luck at the tables.
Should you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to
contact us.

Regards,

Aaron
Full Tilt Poker Team

[MasterChen]

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Here are my Poker Tracker stats on the four players mentioned;

1forthethumb, full_tilting, mariojr, and 0_drunkenboxer.

(I'm not going to say which stats are for which player because that would be unfair on the players mentioned)

Hands……………..…………27375…..25422.....27644.....11537
VPIP%........................14.2….....14.1..…...1 5.06.....13.89
PFR%............................7.28….....7.32..…. ..7.56....….7.32
Att SB……….…...……..18.9…....19.23..….19.96..….18.47
Fold SB to Steal…....…..93.17…...90.62..….93.14..….91.88
Fold BB to Steal…….…90.2…....90.89...….91.4...….86.32
Went to Show Down…..15.24…...15.38..….16.43..….14.47
Won% at Show Down…48.92…...57.83..….55.12..….48.13
Flop Agg……...…………..8.35….....9.87..…..10.37..….12.67
Turn Agg……...…………..3.6….......4.3..…...3.18.....….4.06
River Agg……….………….3.13….....4.06..…...3.03....….2.87


One word sums this up for me: *Yawn*

I'm sure many "robotic-style" mutli-tablers have similar stats. There is nothing particularly interesting here.

As, I mentioned on my post two pages back, I play more hands against these players than anyone. Despite the stats being fairly similar, the players mentioned have some distinctively different styles that these stats don't show.

This thread is a waste of peoples' time and a big f****** joke.

-Narena.

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[/ QUOTE ]

What are my stats Narena? I am curious

[teddyFBI]

just a silly though that came to me -- IF, in the sweatshop there was NOT 1 account uniquely assigned to each individual sweatshopper...e.g. sometimes player #1 played on account #1, but not always and sometimes he played on #2 and #3, and all 3 sweatshoppers did this (let's say just hypothetically it was random who played on which account so that at the end of the day, after 100K hands played on each account, each of the 3 users was responsible for approx 1/3 of that), then might that not be one way that we would expect to see alarming conformity between the 3 accounts' statistics? e.g. it would theoretically be possible for the 3 sweatshoppers to use "the system" in markedly different ways (yes, making different decisions given the same scenario), but as long as they were randomly assigned an account to play on, over the long run, the statistics would approach uniformity.
(This relies on the assumption that the same individual never deviated from his OWN use of "The System"...see >> if each of the 3 people applied "The System" slightly differently, but never deviated from HIS OWN application thereof, then statistics for the 3 accounts would gradually approach uniformity)

p.s. i still think something shadier was going on here...just thinking about hypothetical explanations.

[Cry Me A River]

Where did all the equipment come from? Was it purchased jointly? Did Chuck buy it and get reinbursed by the group's profits? Do they "lease" it from him and pay him for using it? Or did Chuck just plow a couple thousand dollars into monitors and systems so his buddy's could play with him with no other recompence?

The reason nation has stated for not getting involved in a similar venture is that "running a business" on FTP would be contrary to FTP's T&C. And that while he believes Chuck is NOT running a business, hiring some guys to play and paying them fixed salary would be.

I think this is a VERY dubious distinction.

If three doctors shared an office together and split the profts, that WOULD be considered a "business".

If three cab drivers shared a car so as to keep it on the road 24/7, that too WOULD be considered a "business".

How is this any different?

[Smart Money]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My Fult Tilt screen name is "Narena." I 12x multi-table, and probably play more hands per month on Full Tilt at these tables than anyone else. (Approx. 150,000)

[/ QUOTE ]

Narena, could you do us a big favor? Wold you take 2 months of your data, and see if the stats in the OP are as similar for 2 of your months as they are for 4 separate players.

My guess is even from one single player you won't see numbers this close. I would love to hear otherwise.

Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously man. Break your database down per month and compare from month to month and tell us if all your stats are exactly identical like the bots.

[/ QUOTE ]


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OK. I checked my stats, and they are significantly different from these 4 <u>players</u>.

However, and with all respect to full_tilting and the others who I consider very good players, I'm going to "blow my own trumpet" and say that I think my game is more varied, and more profitable. I would go so far as to claim that I am the most profitable player on these tables.

I no longer think that other multi-tablers would have such close stats, however having read through much more of this thread now it's clear why that is so:

My understanding now is that these four players play together (in a legal and fair manner,) making joint decisions, and working from a shared "poker book." If this is the case then I don't see any problem with this at all; fair play, and good luck to them.

It would be a major concern if players were colluding- playing on the same tables, sharing hand information, and artifically inflating pots etc. From what I've read, I don't believe this is the case.

Trebek has obviously done a very thorough job here collecting all of his information, and I can see how it could initially appear to be bots playing on the tables. As I have stated in my previous posts though, I am as sure as I can be that this is not the case.

I have no personal friendship with these players, and my only connection with them is from playing against them on Full Tilt. As such, I have no resaon to defend them other than that bot accusations could potentially drain the pool from which I feed!


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[NoahL]

I got the same email from Aaron at FTP.

I think this is super sketchy, but whatever. Play better.

[ozziepat]

This incident has received a great deal of attention, and rightfully so. It would be a mistake, however, to focus excessively on it to the exclusion of bigger issues. Here are a few relevant facts:

- There are gaming sweatshops, in China and other locales. They will become more efficient and effective over time. And poker sweatshops might be the most benign issue online poker rooms face.

- The AI (Artificial Intelligence) holy grail is the Turing Machine. It's a computing device which is by definition indistinguishable from a human in its observable behavior. If "certainty" is a prerequisite for determining bot behavior, it will only become a less and less probable achievement as bots become more and more sophisticated.

- Criminals exist. If the potential gains are sufficient, very smart criminals will become involved in an "opportunity." These are the ones who don't get caught, as opposed to the stupid ones in this case - if there is criminal behavior in this instance.

- It is incredibly naive to assume that there are no smart hackers involved in developing difficult (or impossible) to detect poker bots. And a good bot will "Learn" as it plays. So a long term consistent pattern of behavior will not exist.

- Poker rooms, IMO, will choose not to employ the extensive knowledge and skills necessary to deal effectively with this issue. They will mostly ignore it beyond crude monitoring and detection schemes. Think about Symantec (Norton Anti-Virus), for example, and the effort required for them to stay just one step behind virus programmers and malware developers - and that's all they do as a business. (Yes, the problem domain is different, but use a little imagination.) Or for that matter, look at the investment in security technology and staff in a major casino.

If there's any consolation in this tale, it's that FTP is probably no worse than any other site and may actually be better than some. Sleep well, now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Ecki]

I save my breath, (less posts etc...)
but IF u can just trust the OP, "they" ARE definetly bots(!)
I don't wanna point out any argument, simply read the OP and concentrate on the facts given.
Winning 50k$ at WSOP, playing Online Poker for years, who would play such a cr** ´line like these lousy insta folds on minbet...
It's simply the question if you can trust trebek or not?
no subjective view simply trustable facts or not...