ZeeJustin apologizes

[PokerHund]

If people chose to not entry twice or more.... that's their own problem.

[mbpoker]

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2. - Stars was stupid not to confiscate the lot - they sent out a message loud and clear to cheaters - 'come to Stars -the site where cheaters can't lose'. Worst decision Lee has made in ages. If you were going to cheat which site would you choose now - Party or Stars?

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First, it might be illegal to confiscate funds which were not gained by cheating.

Second, it seems you don't understand what it takes to win in a big tourney. It would take you to enter 20 tournaments with 6 accounts each. Finally you cash a great deal of money. Now the site will confiscate your win and ban you. So you lost your 120 buy-ins. How is that "cheaters can't lose".

Third, ZJ played with 6 accounts and entered many tourneys on Party, and with 2 accounts and very rarely used the second account on Stars. So it was a different situation. Both Party and Stars did the right thing accounting for what they saw.

[Mike Haven]

[ QUOTE ]
First, it might be illegal to confiscate funds

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It never ceases to amaze me that otherwise knowledgeable posters on these forums seem to think that anything an off-shore poker site chooses to do is "illegal", or that we could do anything whatsoever to get our money back if they decided to post a note on their front page saying they gave themselves an early Christmas bonus and they've switched off their pooter, forever, bye bye world.

[excession]

So, if people choose to follow the rules 'it's their problem' ?

We realise folks like you and ZJ think that rules are voluntary and don't apply to them.

On reflection I may have been unfair to nematode worms..

And how can it possibly be illegal for Stars or Party to confiscate funds when that is exactly what the TOS contract you voluntarilty enter into with them says they can do if you breach it? Especially when that breach is multiple, intentional and amounts to using false identities/fraud?

Some armchair lawyers should get a clue.

[betadecay]

[ QUOTE ]

That guy never thought he would be cheating (and he wasn't). But just in case you were right and it was cheating; it is so clear to see that he didn't think this way. You are only a cheat if cheating is your goal. And so many players play with different accounts for many reasons. Most do it because they can get rakeback with a new account or they just wanted to play more than 4 tables. (in the old days when only 4 tables was allowed at Party) They play on their brother, mother and friends accounts. There were players posting here ; showing pictures when they played up to 20 tables using many accounts and i can remember on 1 of this pics to see 12 Party-Tables. That player even was applauded by most of those that are now blaming this Justin guy. If he broke a rule at Party... fine . He was punished enough. But getting rakeback or playing on your mother account also breaks the rules ; but that of course is something different for most of you . Because doing so is to your advantage. It looks like many here just need someone they can push around.

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I also agree that breaking rules and cheating can be different. But ZJ was playing 6 accounts at the 5000SNG's. I am not positive, but I have to guess the community at that level is pretty small. So using 6 different aliases is an obvious edge. It should also be obvious that the edge is unfair, as many honest patrons will not break TnC's to counter it.

If he had done this at the 5 + 1's the edge would be nearly non existant. Can you think of any reasons to use 6 aliases at the 6 dollar SnG's? It would be a waste of time. So why on earth would ZJ or any other players do this at the 5000 sng's?... because the community is smaller, and the majority of the players in that community are thinking opponents. He crippled one of the necessary tools for succeeding at poker, the ability to get info and reads on your opponents, while for him that ability became greater.

Again this is one of those things were the ethics are not addressed very well. It is not the same as having 6 accounts to play extra tables. I doubt ZJ was 24 tabling. The extra accounts were made to remain anonymous to his opponents. This is not the same as having extra accounts for RB. An extra RB account breaks TnC's but doesn't take away EV from other players. I feel bad for ZJ; mainly because prior to the JJ busts; this practice was common among the high stake players(at least it seems that way). It would take something like these busts to make everyone re-evaluate the issue of multi-accounting.

If I had the bankroll, and skill to play the 5000's a year ago, I'm not sure what I would do. It's a spot where I would either have to cheat to compete, or just wait till the landscape of the games changed. I'm sure alot of pro's came to this dillema. I have to guess most of em went with cheating. This would also off-set the edge gained by doing this as everyone would be cheating. Another reason why the ethics were "grey".

But I did read a statement by that 17 year old Stars champion in an article where he said something like "I have to change my account all the time. These people see you around and then figure you out, so you have to keep moving moving moving" At least it was something like that. ZJ also made a statement on these forum a while back were he stated he was less succesful with blind steals on his ZJ account and that his extra accounts allowed to keep the same success rate. So even though the ethics on this might have been "grey" or poorly addressed, I'm sure in the end these people understood what they were doing.