Contraversial AC Related Thread (TL;PR)

[pvn]

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I don't want to concede that the right to violently defend property is necessary to peaceful society.

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I don't think it is. But without that, you're going to have a very, very poor society. And while it's POSSIBLE for such a society to remain peaceful, you're more likely to see an encouragement of opportunists who take advantage of the situation, creating an environment where it's basically impossible to build up any wealth and improve your standard of living.

[wtfsvi]

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Dude. No. Not agreed. Don't kick me in the nuts [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] (Seriosly.)

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You can easily avoid that by just giving back my apples!
Or you can offer me something in exchange, like bananas and we might trade instead of using violence (e.g. stealing)!

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah. You can easilly avoid getting thrown in jail too. Just pay your taxes and don't use drugs and do... so on and so on. Don't see what your problem is.

[pvn]

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All conflicts will tend to be initiated by "me"

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I think that's all we needed to know.

[/ QUOTE ] If I do something you don't like, I initiate conflict.

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Nope.

[wtfsvi]

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I don't want to concede that the right to violently defend property is necessary to peaceful society.

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I don't think it is. But without that, you're going to have a very, very poor society. And while it's POSSIBLE for such a society to remain peaceful, you're more likely to see an encouragement of opportunists who take advantage of the situation, creating an environment where it's basically impossible to build up any wealth and improve your standard of living.

[/ QUOTE ] To the degree people agree that property rights are needed for a prosperous society, property rights will be respected. No need to give property rights a special place, like in ACism.

[wtfsvi]

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All conflicts will tend to be initiated by "me"

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I think that's all we needed to know.

[/ QUOTE ] If I do something you don't like, I initiate conflict.

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Nope.

[/ QUOTE ] Ok. That's my definition of iniating conflict. Doing something I know you will object to. What do you think "initiating conflict" is?

[MrBlah]

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To the degree people agree that property rights are needed for a prosperous society, property rights will be respected. No need to give property rights a special place, like in ACism.

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They aren't given a special place! The necessary degree is exactly that over your own body and the fruits of your labour. You have already conceded that you own your body yourself and from there it's easy to deduce the necessary degree of property rights.

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Yeah. You can easilly avoid getting thrown in jail too. Just pay your taxes and don't use drugs and do... so on and so on. Don't see what your problem is.

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The fact that somebody can throw me into jail because I use drugs or don't pay taxes implies that he, who uses force against me, thinks that I don't own my body. He thinks that he owns a part of it. DUCY?

[wtfsvi]

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They aren't given a special place! The necessary degree is exactly that over your own body and the fruits of your labour. You have already conceded that you own your body yourself and from there it's easy to deduce the necessary degree of property rights.

[/ QUOTE ] This is where we disagree. Let's hear this "easy deduction" of yours.

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The fact that somebody can throw me into jail because I use drugs or don't pay taxes implies that he, who uses force against me, thinks that I don't own my body. He thinks that he owns a part of it. DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. I see why.

[foal]

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that over your own body and the fruits of your labour. You have already conceded that you own your body yourself and from there it's easy to deduce the necessary degree of property rights.

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No it isn't (queue to explain why).

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The fact that somebody can throw me into jail because I use drugs or don't pay taxes implies that he, who uses force against me, thinks that I don't own my body. He thinks that he owns a part of it. DUCY?

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Not really.

[pvn]

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All conflicts will tend to be initiated by "me"

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I think that's all we needed to know.

[/ QUOTE ] If I do something you don't like, I initiate conflict.

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Nope.

[/ QUOTE ] Ok. That's my definition of iniating conflict. Doing something I know you will object to. What do you think "initiating conflict" is?

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Something I don't like is different than something I object to.

And in both cases, I am not necessarily going to respond with violence.

But again, I ask, why are you planning on initiating conflict?

[pvn]

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I don't want to concede that the right to violently defend property is necessary to peaceful society.

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I don't think it is. But without that, you're going to have a very, very poor society. And while it's POSSIBLE for such a society to remain peaceful, you're more likely to see an encouragement of opportunists who take advantage of the situation, creating an environment where it's basically impossible to build up any wealth and improve your standard of living.

[/ QUOTE ] To the degree people agree that property rights are needed for a prosperous society, property rights will be respected. No need to give property rights a special place, like in ACism.

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What's the difference between respecting property rights and "giving them a special place"?