Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread

[APerfect10]

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If I paid you to sit there and do what the software told you to do, could you do it? (Ignore, would you, for purposes of the question)

fwiw, over time I would expect misclicks to be minimized.

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Well they werent being paid to sit there and make clicks; at least that is what we are being told. They are playing with their own money on their own accounts. A little different IMHO.

I'm not talking misclicks. I'm talking about where they have the nut flush and the river pairs board. Opponent pushes all-in. Strategically their rules say to fold. But they have a gut feeling and really think the guy is full of it so they decide to call. Do really think they NEVER do this because they follow the rule set 100%? IMHO, it seems rather hard to believe.

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AP10, while they were indeed not being paid an hourly to click, it was not far off.

The scenario suggested was that all wins/losses/rakeback across all accounts was pooled and profits distributed equally to reduce the effect of variance on the individual incomes.

The moniker of "sweatshop" stereotypes a scenario with one slavedriver reaping the profits while the workers toil for a minimum wage - this is not the suggested case here, although given the quantity of OMG BOT! OMG SWEATSHOP! posts it is easy to have missed this detail.

Given this - going with a "gut feeling and really think the guy is full of it" read - great if successful, but if not - face the wrath of the other grinders following "the system" for costing them all $$ by deviating of his own accord.

Now obviously this is a weird situation to imagine... but if you were a losing player, recruited by/joined a so called "sweatshop" and were suddenly banking a steady earn from minimal winrate + decent RB, surely you can understand why a drone would think "OMG this LAG is so FOS, no way he has a boat!!! but "system" says fold, I fold, ho-hum, on to the next hand"

Thoughts?

dave.

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It all just seems too hard to believe. I'm a winning medium & high stakes player and I've been told by opponents that I am the most disciplined player they've ever played against. Even still, on occasion I mess up and make a bad call even though my mind/system/past experience tells me to fold.

Remember, this is only one hard to believe aspect of the entire story. A lot of the other things are rather hard to believe as well IMHO. Adding them all together leads me to only one conclusion.

Ok, you cant prove it completely. I think there is enough substance here that they should at minimum be banned from the site. Let them keep their money and tell them to move on and learn from this and modify the T&C to not allow this "sweat shop" type of setup.

Regardless if you think they are guilty or innocent; I think we can all agree that Full Tilt dropped the ball on this....big time!

[_dave_]

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It all just seems too hard to believe.


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Oh it's a stretch, but but not outside the realms of possibility, for example:

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I'm a winning medium & high stakes player and I've been told by opponents that I am the most disciplined player they've ever played against. Even still, on occasion I mess up and make a bad call even though my mind/system/past experience tells me to fold.


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Imagine if you were NOT - like maybe 0_drunkenboxer seems to have been prior to the "sweatshop"

You are a losing player, someone offers you a detailed, street-by-street "system" to eek out a minimal winrate, collect gobs of rakeback, with the reduced varience of combined bankroll - wouldn't you follow the "system" to the absolute letter?

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A lot of the other things are rather hard to believe as well IMHO.


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Remind me... the only one I remember was the disbelief of nlnut unable to sort out antivirus, but able to fix AHK - I didn't argue about that at the time since there was ~300+ posts since, but I don't go for that - I repair Windows for a R/L job - I have encountered boffins who can code ASM but can't adequately protect themselves from simple malware.

If you ignore the ridiculous posts by his co-hort and only pay attention to those of nlnut, there is very little inconsistency.

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Ok, you cant prove it completely.


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IMO a site must be able to - it is really not hard to detect activities of a real bot - it will make mistakes (not TOP mistakes, but detection mistakes) if it is playing 12 tables. Like acting on 4 tables simultaneously, or the obvious playing of obscene hours.


Consider this: if the "sweatshop" is indeed fully automated bots - would it not make more sense to run one for six hours - break for a little - get new IP - run another account for 6 hours, rinse, repeat?

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I think there is enough substance here that they should at minimum be banned from the site.


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But there is at the end of it nothing here other than similar stats? they are not colluding - which is of course ban worthy - what is wrong with being a "human-bot"?

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Let them keep their money


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If there is enough to justifiably ban them, there should also be enough to justifiably take their funds as the proceeds of illegal play, no?


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modify the T&C to not allow this "sweat shop" type of setup.


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At the end of the day, what is actually wrong with a "sweatshop" such as this one is purported to be?

I agree it is a bit of a weird thing to comprehend, but what is the wrongness of it? Any different to playing alone while 2 friends observe and remind you if you are about to deviate from the system? Any different to coaching over VNC+Skype?

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I think we can all agree that Full Tilt dropped the ball on this....big time!


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Indeed, but (as is my current perception of the situation) only by failing to quickly point out what these people were doing, and why it was indeed allowed.



Maybe I have totally misunderstood, but I find nothing in any site's t&c that would outlaw such "sweatshopping" - and I'm kinda hard pushed to actually see anything actually wrong with it - apart from the gut-reaction nasty taste in the mouth the idea of such scenarios creates.

If there are actually people playing an identical tiltless aggro-nit strategy set in stone 6 hours a day, every day - where is the wrongness?

Weird situation indeed, and I'm glad it has come up - but the mob is so very quick to judge, me thinks.

dave.

[holyfield5]

you kids were screaming the sky is falling about bots a long time ago, you were just waiting for a thread to run with......this whole thing is stupid and so is pretty much every person who replied in this thread.

Good Work FTP some of us still love you guys.

[O Twist]

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you kids were screaming the sky is falling about bots a long time ago, you were just waiting for a thread to run with......this whole thing is stupid and so is pretty much every person who replied in this thread.

Good Work FTP some of us still love you guys.

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You can go f*** yourself and your cavalier attitude. If in doubt kick them out. Get rid of them. If they feel like s***, smell like s***, and taste like s***, they probably are. FTP is screwing around alot of people for a few. Complete BS. Well guess what, BOTS will be on the increase on FTP because they obviously don't have the kohonas to do anything about it.

[antistuff]

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If the evidence was found to be inconclusive, why were the account not closed? If there is even a small chance the accounts could be bots at all the accounts should all be closed and the funds seized. And wtf if the evidence was inconclusive then how did you determine that the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds? This is completely rediculous that nothing has been done.

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wow. no. they better be pretty damn sure before they start closing accounts and seizing funds, that is not something that it is not acceptable to make a mistake about.

[_dave_]

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You can go f*** yourself and your cavalier attitude. If in doubt kick them out. Get rid of them. If they feel like s***, smell like s***, and taste like s***, they probably are. FTP is screwing around alot of people for a few. Complete BS. Well guess what, BOTS will be on the increase on FTP because they obviously don't have the kohonas to do anything about it.

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You would gladly accept it if FT seized your bankroll and banned your account without a large amount of overwhelming evidence?

ARE YOU SURE you have never made a play "a bot would make"?

Think about what you are saying, fool.

[R*R]

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You can go f*** yourself and your cavalier attitude. If in doubt kick them out. Get rid of them. If they feel like s***, smell like s***, and taste like s***, they probably are. FTP is screwing around alot of people for a few. Complete BS. Well guess what, BOTS will be on the increase on FTP because they obviously don't have the kohonas to do anything about it.

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You would gladly accept it if FT seized your bankroll and banned your account without a large amount of overwhelming evidence?

ARE YOU SURE you have never made a play "a bot would make"?

Think about what you are saying, fool.

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Well for one thing fool he said nothing about taking there money. Kick them out. End of story. Their plotting and planning together is ludicrous whether they uses bots or not.
Online has to be as close to live as possible. Do you discuss hand play with friends at a live table while the hand is in progress. This is plain sick.

[_dave_]

Well then consider the same argument without taking money.

Would you be happy to be kicked from site to site on allegation without evidence?

It would not be long before there is no sites left... and if you are US based, what, 4 sites boot you before you are entirely banned from playing poker through no fault of your own?

You quote-call me fool? Do you fail to realize how your "execution without trial" suggestion is far more foolish than occasionally failing to catch a criminal?

[R*R]

Well so be it. When people cheat in the Olympics they are banned for life. You have a problem with that too? To me they have been caught (and admitted to) discusiing hands while they are in progress. Maybe they should have kept their mouthts shut rather than incriminating themselves.

[_dave_]

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Their plotting and planning together is ludicrous whether they uses bots or not.


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No it is not.

"plotting and planning together" is what goes on in every strategy thread in every strategy forum on this very site every day.

What is the difference between strategy posters and these "bots" you are accusing?