citanul let's do it

[citanul]

OK,

I just got back from eating the "best burger in Chicago." (I was not incredibly impressed, but it was a good burger.)

So here's what's going to happen:

1) I'm not currently looking at the notes on the tone post. I'm going to work with Adanthar in a bit and we're going to put up a note on the tone post. It's going to be close to "use some [censored] common sense you [censored] maggots."

2) For the next week, I will fill in for Gildwulf as BBV mod. In his absence I will be stricter than any BBV mod has ever been before, but I will attempt to roll with the idea of "use some [censored] common sense you [censored] maggots." I will delete posts when I want to delete them. I will not have a complaints thread. The nature of BBV is if they want to make one, they will. I will not engage the debate on their terms I will engage it on mine.

My problem/whatever with this is the following. Many of the complaints about the heavier handed moderation (which btw hasn't really had to be used at all outside of people mouthing off to show what huge [censored] they have I don't think) center around the idea that the mods should use discretion, subjectivity, and a sense of humor, when deciding if someone has stepped over the line. My response to this is that the problem is that the leniency of the moderation (little bit) combined with the TOTAL AND UTTER inability of the rabble to actually know where to draw their own lines (and to be fair, this is frequently a case of the few ruining it for the many), and because of this, everyone suffers a time of greater moderation. If you want to be given greater freedoms you have to show that you are responsible enough to use those freedoms properly.

More soon.

citanul

[citanul]

i have moved the ridiculous complaints thread here. i'm done with that nonsense now.

[Gildwulf]

Ryan, your post makes a lot of sense to me.

To clarify:

I never pitched the racism as new, and in fact a lot of my original arguments were basically that I am enforcing rules that already exist that have been basically ignored. Noone really bought that or cared.

As for the events leading up to Citanul, you approved of the racism policy and the 48 hour warning sticky in this thread and said you were "very fine" with not having people say nigga as a policy. I'm not sure why you didn't step in earlier if you thought that banning specific words or phrases would "never work".

On a different note, I suggested earlier in this thread that when Citanul is done we go back to a sticky that says "use common sense, no racism no spamming, gogogogogo".

[Gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
My problem/whatever with this is the following. Many of the complaints about the heavier handed moderation (which btw hasn't really had to be used at all outside of people mouthing off to show what huge [censored] they have I don't think) center around the idea that the mods should use discretion, subjectivity, and a sense of humor, when deciding if someone has stepped over the line. My response to this is that the problem is that the leniency of the moderation (little bit) combined with the TOTAL AND UTTER inability of the rabble to actually know where to draw their own lines (and to be fair, this is frequently a case of the few ruining it for the many), and because of this, everyone suffers a time of greater moderation. If you want to be given greater freedoms you have to show that you are responsible enough to use those freedoms properly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Citanul hit the nail on the head here and I'm not really sure how to solve this.

[citanul]

Jared,

The paper that used this game (an older game than the paper) is: Palacios-Huerta, Ignacio, and Oscar Volij, “Experientia Docet: Professionals Play Minimax in Laboratory Experiments. I think google will spit out a link faster than i can.

Unfortunately there's really (really) good reason to believe their results are fake.

this came after this paper by levitt.

I'm sure I have the name of a couple others, but these were the two we talked about most in class the other day.

[Ryan Beal]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the events leading up to Citanul, you approved of the racism policy and the 48 hour warning sticky in this thread and said you were "very fine" with not having people say nigga as a policy. I'm not sure why you didn't step in earlier if you thought that banning specific words or phrases would "never work".

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because I approve something doesn't mean it's how I would handle it. Also, I think banning specific words is effective if we put them in the filter, but not quite as much otherwise. That doesn't mean I'm not fine with it, though.

What I didn't realize when I said I was "very fine" with the ban on nigga is that there would then be new words you guys wanted to target each day.

[Gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the events leading up to Citanul, you approved of the racism policy and the 48 hour warning sticky in this thread and said you were "very fine" with not having people say nigga as a policy. I'm not sure why you didn't step in earlier if you thought that banning specific words or phrases would "never work".

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because I approve something doesn't mean it's how I would handle it. Also, I think banning specific words is effective if we put them in the filter, but not quite as much otherwise. That doesn't mean I'm not fine with it, though. Still, what I didn't realize when I said I was "very fine" with the ban on nigga is that there would then be new words you guys wanted to target each day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I told citanul to mod as he saw fit and take any permaban decisions with me while I took a break from modding so this is my fault. I never intended as I have said multiple times in the threads here to make Citanul's rules permanent.

Maybe the best way is to just put nigga/niggaz in the filter and be done with it

[Mat Sklansky]

A long time ago, when I knew who every volunteer moderator was, I felt that OOT was slipping out of control. I wanted to shut it down.

Two things happened. I made my concern and desire public which got all the ooters focused on that and not on complaining about my moderation. And while that was happening, [censored] stepped in with a plan to save the day.


I mention this because a forum like bbv can be shut down. It is an option that you can mention to those who seem to be ruining it, if you like.

I will happily, in that case, make a post confirming that the closure is being considered.

[citanul]

Mat, Ryan, etc,

1) please add nigga/niggaz to the filter. if you can do this while allowing "niggardly" please do. i don't see any value being added by either word, ever.

2) i don't want to get rid of "a new word every day." 2 things are at play:
a) i think that racism, homophobia, etc are really not ok at all, but i'm "fine" leading off with just those first two.
b) i believe that the rules while i am modding should by necessity be a little harsher and more thorougly enforced than gildwulf will have upon his return/has the time to enforce anyway.

3) i think the most important thing i can say is that i honestly think this is very fixable. in fact i don't think it is far off fixed. i think in the next 24 hours i am going to try to put more concerted effort in to figuring out who the biggest problems are, by talking to the other mods and by reading more and keeping good notes. the curtailing of just a few will allow for a "reboot" that i think everyone is looking forward to in a few days.

4) the new direction has already begun. the new stickies are up. however i will be using my subjective judgement more harshly than i expect future mods to.

5) mat i really hope that it doesn't come down to that, but i'm sure that the residents of bbvtardtopia would be able to properly digest your nucular threat.

[citanul]

user PM who is unhappy about the idea of "retarded" unbanned by "niggaz/etc" banned:

[ QUOTE ]
I've been a member of the forums for a couple of years, posting throughout more than a dozen forums. I account for hundreds if not 1000+ page views per day, and read BBV constantly throughout my boring day job. I am leaving 2+2 over this, and I'm mad as hell. Not a SINGLE person said they would leave BBV over the retarded rule, not one. I AM leaving. Their actions and indifference towards language that is obnoxiously offensive is absurd to me, and completely irrational. If they want a no-holds-barred BBV, like it used to be, I'm fine with it. But when they decide that some obviously offensive language is not OK but other obviously offensive language IS OK due to the fact that some of them "like to say it," that's [censored]. I am an actual lost customer due to their actions.

Please PM me if the rule ever changes, as I would look forward to returning to the 2+2 community.

[/ QUOTE ]