STTF SNG->cash thread

[slimon]

[ QUOTE ]
To 3-bet or not to 3-bet depends mostly on how often they call, not how often they raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't want to 3-bet people who are too loose or too tight then right? If they are too tight wouldn't they have something when you 3-bet them? When you 3-bet someone who is too loose you are going to need a good hand because he will call you?

[jgunnip]

Should I be folding these hands if my plan is basically to c/f the flop? First hand notice we're 190bb deep. Last two hands are against the same opponent. What should I read into the full pot cbet. It sucks playing these oop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($67.65)
MP ($45.85)
CO ($23.05)
Button ($20.80)
Hero ($43.85)
BB ($25.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6.35</font>, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls $4.45.

Flop: ($13.30) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $9.5</font>, Hero folds.



Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($29.40)
MP ($32.65)
Hero ($40.05)
Button ($33.10)
SB ($10.30)
BB ($10.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $3.9</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP folds, Hero calls $2.80.

Flop: ($8.40) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $8</font>, Hero folds.




Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($29.40)
UTG ($32.40)
Hero ($36.15)
CO ($37.20)
Button ($10.20)
SB ($10.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $3.9</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $2.80.

Flop: ($8.40) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $8.4</font>, Hero folds.

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
So if someone has a high VPIP and low PFR that means he's a calling station? How do I expolit that? So I should raise less because he calls too much?

If someone has a high PFR I should be 3 betting them more or calling in position to take it down?

I'm thinking % to steal is a good indicator whether or not to 3 bet also. How high of a % does it need to be for you to be 3-betting him with crap? If I see him 4-bet me alot does that mean I should 3-bet him less and only with premium cards?

[/ QUOTE ]


VPIP and PFR are just preflop numbers. you could have a 50/0 that loves to raise every flop no matter what. This guy definitely wouldn't be a calling station. Aggressive preflop players generally have a PFR that is within 2-4% of their VPIP. Somebody whos VPIP is twice that of their PFR ie 18/9, 24/12, 34/17 tend to be more passive since they are calling as much as they are raising preflop. A 80/40 is just a maniac.

Not all players play postflop like they do preflop. some TAGs (16/14 ish) are quite passive postflop while some fish (40/2 ish) like to play the flop and turn very aggressively. Figuring these things out for different players is key. Postflop aggression gives you somewhat of an idea here. Also the fold/call/raise cbet stat is very helpful. Some players, both good and bad, will float (call you lightly) your cbets on the flop but fold a high percentage of the time on the river.

Another preflop thing comparing a players PFR with their attempt to steal %. Some players Stl% is twice that of their PFR, hence they are pretty tight and straightforward from UTG and UTG+1 (and most likely positionally aware), but are very aggressive in position. These of the types of players you might look to 3bet. Against a 20/18 players who steals 19% of the time you generally don't want to 3bet this player lightly, however against a 16/14 who steals 29% of the time you can probably widen your 3betting range.

As for 4 betting, at 25nl and 50nl you won't run into very many opponents who will 4 bet you light. I do it rarely when its obvious so aggrotard is 3betting me with a huge range. However you don't want to widen your four betting range too much. 88+ AJ+ would be a loose 4 betting range for the lower stakes.

Hope some of that made sense

[jgunnip]

I think checking behind on the river is standard against most players but against fishy players who float and call down multiple streets with very weak holdings am I missing value in these hands?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($8.85)
CO ($29.80)
Hero ($45.75)
SB ($34.20)
BB ($27.55)
UTG ($39.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.1</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.85.

Flop: ($2.55) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.85</font>, CO calls $1.85.

Turn: ($6.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.85</font>, CO calls $3.85.

River: ($13.95) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $13.95



Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($18.30)
UTG ($40.85)
Hero ($35.95)
CO ($39.75)
Button ($10.15)
SB ($9.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.85</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $0.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($1.95) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.6</font>, BB calls $1.60.

Turn: ($5.15) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.25</font>, BB calls $3.25.

River: ($11.65) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $11.65

[DevinLake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To 3-bet or not to 3-bet depends mostly on how often they call, not how often they raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't want to 3-bet people who are too loose or too tight then right? If they are too tight wouldn't they have something when you 3-bet them? When you 3-bet someone who is too loose you are going to need a good hand because he will call you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again it depends on what they are calling you with. You need to pay attention at the tables to figure this out.

Someone can play 40/30 and not call many 3-bets, so you can 3-bet this guy. Someone else might play 20/18 but never fold to 3-bets (these guys are actually some what frequent at mid stakes...yummy), so you don't 3-bet them light. Or, if you do you have to be willing to stack off light, c/r bluff, etc. (high variance).

You can even 3-bet tight players...an exrteme example would be if a 10/8 open, and you 3-bet. If he'll only call with AA, you can probably 3-bet him with any two cards really and it's show a profit. (I'm not really suggesting 3-betting 10/8s).

[blackize]

gunnip,

Hand 1 I check on the river. I don't see what he can call you with that you beat since I think most of his range is flush draws. I think the amount of times you get a call from a worse J or stubborn pp or whatever are offset by the times he's being a station with A2 or something.

Hand 2 looks like a clear bet.

[blackize]

gunnip,

For those 3bet hands you posted:

Hand 1- You're getting 14:1 or so implied and almost 2:1 from the pot. And if he's tight enough that you're check folding flops like this, you have set mining odds. If you think he'll 3bet and shut down with AK I'd call his flop bet, otherwise I think this is fine.

Edit: Oops forgot the other 2

Hand 2- I'd probably call the flop bet, but folding isn't too bad.

Hand 3- If stacks were a little shallower I'd fold pf. This is another spot where you're getting 14:1 implied and 2:1 from the pot. As played fold.

[jgunnip]

thanks blackize, I'd usually fold my PPs to the 3 bet at 25nl unless I'm getting ~15:1 when I'm OOP. Maybe I just need to work on flopping sets more?

[blackize]

Villain is 65/25/2.7 over 42 hands. TT is tough to play OOP and with his stats I would guess he's not folding often to my 3bet. 3betting is still standard no? On the turn I want to give him a chance to think I have AK and try to bet me off it. Then the river I thought was one he couldn't bluff at and I didn't think he was folding better or calling worse. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $64.45
BTN: $62.45
Hero (SB): $50
BB: $51.75
UTG: $49.25
MP: $49.60

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $5.75</font>, BB folds, BTN calls $4

Flop: ($12) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $7</font>, BTN calls $7

Turn: ($26) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $14</font>, Hero calls $14

River: ($54) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $35.70 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $54 Pot ($2.70 Rake)

Ooops, left results.

[cakewalk]

blackize my first inkling was to check shove the turn vs this guy. i dont see him floating the flop with much that the turn helps. i'd also bet more on the flop, probably like 9.