Yo checkcheckcheckcheckcheckcheck

[rebuyboy]

shove the rivero

[Janis N.]

[ QUOTE ]
straights can run into higher straights. flushes can run into higher flushes. just like sets can run into oversets.

[/ QUOTE ]True, but your flushes will beat the other guy's sets even though you lose to his higher flushes. I think it's commonly accepted that flushes and straights beat sets, at least on the other poker forums I frequent.

[SilentNoise]

i think villans range is something more like

Board: 7d 8h 9c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 63.701% 61.94% 01.76% 58255 1655.50 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 36.299% 34.54% 01.76% 32484 1655.50 { TT-22, AQs-AJs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AQo, KQo }


i play with bidicha quite a bit and i know he always calls my utg raises (even when sb folds - which they didn't in this case) with 22-TT. And i run alot laggier than Fgator.

So id bet the flop for this reason. Also bidicha doesn't bluff much. if we give him a free card on the flop with his small pairs, he will now bet the turn/river when he hits, and we have gained nothing by giving him the free card to his 2 outer since he wouldn't have bluffed with them anyway.

[Dan Bitel]

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In this one hand, you saved money because your opponent flopped the nuts.

In the vast majority of cases, your opponent doesn't flop a monster. Aagainst those hands, which are most of his preflop calling range, you either failed to extract value or gave them multiple chances to catch up.

Really, would you have posted this hand if the Villain had AJo and the River had been an offsuit 4? Then it would have just been your weak play handing a pot to your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what hands are you hoping to get value off by betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

TT/T9/76/66/A6-AT/and any random J or 5 that decides to float with a gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read is that willain is good, he's not going to float OOP with just a 5 or just a jack!

Villain just about NEVER calls preflop with A6-AT

All the other hands in your range for "value" are going to c/r us just about always.

So I'll ask again,. where are you getting value from?

[SilentNoise]

[ QUOTE ]
True, but your flushes will beat the other guy's sets even though you lose to his higher flushes. I think it's commonly accepted that flushes and straights beat sets, at least on the other poker forums I frequent.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes your flushes/straights will beat their sets, and if villain isn't clueless hes going to give you inproper odds to chase those flushes/straights. and your flushes might lose to higher flushes (i think this is a really BS argument ..just trying to use your own twisted reasoning against you -- generally if you have a flush/straight/set u are going broke and didn't do anything/much wrong by doing so)

villain calls preflop with pairs in that spot ALOT. he overestimates his implied hugely. he calls my btn raises with small pairs all the time and c/f's when he misses. he is 100% of the time calling preflop with small pairs in hi spot given that sb has called aswell.

[Michaelson]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, poker is about ranges right? Your range, villains range, so forth?

So let us put villain on a range. Villain won't call with small pocket pairs as he doesn't have set odds - FGator's range is too wide preflop for that. He will 3bet with JJ+. So from pocket pairs the range is TT-77 basically. Let us add some suited connectors like 76s-JTs and maybe a rare one-gapper like 97s.

Board: 7d 8s 9h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.348% 29.71% 01.64% 8530 470.00 { KcKd }
Hand 1: 68.652% 67.01% 01.64% 19240 470.00 { TT-77, JTs, T9s, 97s, 87s, 76s }


We are 31% on the flop.

Board: 7d 8s 9h Ad
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.013% 34.01% 00.00% 434 0.00 { KcKd }
Hand 1: 65.987% 65.99% 00.00% 842 0.00 { TT-77, JTs, T9s, 97s, 87s, 76s }

We are 34% on the turn.

So flop and turn are the easiest checks ever, just as hero played here. I'm surprised there is any argument about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I don't want to be a prick (this place is overrun with them), but this is really bad analysis unless I've misunderstood it. If Fgators isn't good (equity wise) on this flop more often than not I'll give it in. For one thing, unless FGators is really wild preflop, SB of course has set odds to call preflop with 22 against an UTG raise and 100BB stacks. So add all the pocket pairs up to TT please. Additionally, hands like AJ and AQ can also play this way, and sometimes even hands like KQs and KJs if villain is feeling a bit frisky. So throw them in the mix as well.

So a more accurate range would produce something along these lines: Board: 7d 8c 9h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.312% 60.58% 01.73% 62972 1801.50 { KcKd }
Hand 1: 37.688% 35.95% 01.73% 37375 1801.50 { TT-22, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, AQo-AJo }

[ QUOTE ]
River gets more interesting.

What would villain checkraise on the river if not the strongest part of his range (according to game theory)?

Let us take the 2 strongest hands that villain may have.

Board: 7d 8s 9h Ad Kh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.857% 42.86% 00.00% 3 0.00 { KcKd }
Hand 1: 57.143% 57.14% 00.00% 4 0.00 { 99, JTs }

We see that basically we have odds to call his checkraise, but NOT SHOVE OURSELVES just as hero played.

And if you think these ranges are too narrow then try adding JTo and 66 to the mix and see how the situation changes then!

According to the analysis against the villain's range (the fabled G-bucks) hero played this hand perfectly and there isn't really any other way to play it. Only according to Sklansky bucks analysis did hero make a mistake of calling a river checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't get this, we're saying at this point villain's calling range is two hands exactly? Why is 99 included but not 77 or 88?

Anyway, I don't think the hand was necessarily played terribly as a non-standard line against an aggro villain. He played for pot control where otherwise he could easily have been put in a marginal spot playing for his stack. If cards had fallen differently he might have squeezed some value and kept the pot small by projecting to his villain that he was on a draw himself. But in terms of equity versus villain's range, there's no way he isn't ahead.

[Bulletproof Monk]

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i think i just call the raise due to range merging

[/ QUOTE ]

so we're merging our calling ranges now? seems like a good way to disguise your bluff-calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

err... i just meant that he either has a stone cold bluff that isnt calling a reraise, or a nut type hand like a straight. its rare he can have a set here because he would have bet it earlier

[Bulletproof Monk]

michaelson - i think he was being sarcastic heh

[Symbolic]

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Yes I think that picture was taken a few months ago.

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Which one is you?

[Jay Riall]

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Yes I think that picture was taken a few months ago.

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Which one is you?

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Bottom one ldo