Going All In Before The Flop....

[Mondogarage]

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But no, you can't fold KK PF.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. If I am deep enough I am usually going to fold to the 4th raise. Also, I don't know how I'd respond to an all in with KK on the first hand of a 200BB+ major tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm not sure how I'd respond in that situation, either. But then, I've yet to buy in to a 200+BB major tournament, and my game and bankroll is not there yet.

But in my average $5.50 - $26 buyin level, with 50BB starting chips, I don't see a reasonable way to fold KK on the opening hand. Why? Because with those stacks, I don't see someone holding KK not being all in by the 3rd raise, and Phil's scenario wouldn't come to light. I'm not talking about later (bubble ITM or bubble FT, deep stacks, etc.) I'm talking strictly first hand or first blind level.

Anyway, reasonable minds can surely differ.

[jcm4ccc]

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poker is not all about math

[/ QUOTE ]No one has said that poker is ALL about math.

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You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ] Poker is NOT all about math. But every decision in poker can be reduced to math. Every decision, without exception.

[Jeff76]

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Anyway, reasonable minds can surely differ.

[/ QUOTE ]No, I agree with everything you said in your post.

[LearnedfromTV]

bump

[mscaces]

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But no, you can't fold KK PF.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. If I am deep enough I am usually going to fold to the 4th raise. Also, I don't know how I'd respond to an all in with KK on the first hand of a 200BB+ major tournament.

[/ QUOTE ] Ok I lied I am back, but just to share this story with you. I was playing in a $5000 WPT event several years ago at the Bellagio. 860 people entered the tournament we were down to the last 40. I was dealt KK, my stack was slightly below the average, I raised, and was reraised, I re-raised again, I now had slightly less than half my chips, he re raised and put me all in. He had AA...after the hand several very well know poker players came up to me and said you had to have known he had AA, you should have folded...I felt at the time I was in it for too much and I had to go.....I should have folded...all I am saying this is an area that needs to be thought about carefully in key situations.

Actually, I'm not sure how I'd respond in that situation, either. But then, I've yet to buy in to a 200+BB major tournament, and my game and bankroll is not there yet.

But in my average $5.50 - $26 buyin level, with 50BB starting chips, I don't see a reasonable way to fold KK on the opening hand. Why? Because with those stacks, I don't see someone holding KK not being all in by the 3rd raise, and Phil's scenario wouldn't come to light. I'm not talking about later (bubble ITM or bubble FT, deep stacks, etc.) I'm talking strictly first hand or first blind level.

Anyway, reasonable minds can surely differ.

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[[Phill]]

Sorry Jeff, i misunderstood your first post, i just reread it.

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poker is not all about math

[/ QUOTE ]No one has said that poker is ALL about math.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ] Poker is NOT all about math. But every decision in poker can be reduced to math. Every decision, without exception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only to certain degrees of accuracy. This is why poker is so advanced beyond the basics, because fundamentally its a game of imperfect information.

[TFGoose]

Folding KK is a lot different than folding AA. The argument supporting a KK fold is based on entirely different principles than the ones you are using to advocate folding AA.

Allow me to illustrate the difference:

If you hold KK, and 3 people go all-in before you in a large buy in tournament, you can justify folding because it's likely one of them holds AA.

If you hold AA, and 3 people go all-in before you in a large buy in tournament, you can justify folding if you hate money.

--TFGoose

[Jeff76]

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Sorry Jeff, i misunderstood your first post, i just reread it.

[/ QUOTE ]I figured this was the case after your second post. It's all good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Mondogarage]

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Ok I lied I am back, but just to share this story with you. I was playing in a $5000 WPT event several years ago at the Bellagio. 860 people entered the tournament we were down to the last 40. I was dealt KK, my stack was slightly below the average, I raised, and was reraised, I re-raised again, I now had slightly less than half my chips, he re raised and put me all in. He had AA...after the hand several very well know poker players came up to me and said you had to have known he had AA, you should have folded...I felt at the time I was in it for too much and I had to go.....I should have folded...all I am saying this is an area that needs to be thought about carefully in key situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please keep your own words in your own quotes, OP, and refrain from inserting them within mine. I'd hate for folks to think I'm as weak-tight as you, on the first hand of a tourney, thankyouverymuch.

FWIW, you misplayed your KK in that hand, as well, even if you would have gone all out on that hand. 4 tables left, less than average stack, and KK? Given that information, I don't see how a reasonably talented player is not all in on the 3rd bet (even if you are called by AA.) That doesn't mean I believe KK should always be an all in by the 2nd re-raise. But 1st hand of a low buy-in tourney, or less than average stack size at whatever level players are at after 95% of the field is eliminated in a WPT event...those scenarios scream out for all-ins on a 2nd re-raise, even if for different reasons.

Like they say at the Washington Post, "if you don't get it, you don't get it."

Edited for comment to the Goose: I'm really talking about HU situations, anyway. Of course, if there's 3 all-ins in front of you, KK becomes much easier to fold...

[TFGoose]

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Edited for comment to the Goose: I'm really talking about HU situations, anyway. Of course, if there's 3 all-ins in front of you, KK becomes much easier to fold...

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Understood, and agreed. My comments were more to reflect back on some stuff earlier in the thread where villa...er, mcaces was talking about mucking AA preflop.

--TFGoose