The Dumbing Down of America

[EricW]

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I'd also posit pop psychology making people think they can't discipline their own kids and keep them from running around like wild animals, because it might cause the boogeyman to leap out of the closet and warp their kids' minds or something. We rely on experts and pseudo-experts way too much for even elementary things, and regarding kids, can easily feel like well-studied experts without having a clue or any control whatsoever on what's happening in our own families. We decide to feel good about trying, not about results.

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I don't get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that personal anecdotes are better and more reliable than large sample sizes? Also, you shouldn't lump "experts" with "pseudo experts"

[KotOD]

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Boris -

wow, I wrote a run-on sentence on a message board. I also write better than 95% of people, and have near-impeccable spelling. I also wrote that post in about one minute.

For the most part, communication of the 1800s was far less reliable and took far less time, thus the greater care you see in writings of the time. The old Pascal line about, "If I'd had more time I'd've written you a shorter letter." - people took more care of these things and probably had an eye on posterity with them as well.

Florid writing is a luxury and a sign of luxury - clear writing is important. I think you're confusing the two.

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I know you are responding to Boris, but I must take up one point. I'm not talking about grammar alone, rather I'm talking about ability to write a clear and concise sentence. And I'm not comparing college grads from today to the same from the 1850's. I'm comparing them to college grads from ten years ago.

My premise is still that the IM generation as a whole is severely lacking the writing ability to be successful in the real world.

[Claunchy]

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Breadth of vocabulary is certainly one strong indicator of education level and intelligence.

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Don't disagree with you there. Do disagree that more people had a larger breadth of vocabulary on average 150 years ago, and frankly think it's insane that anyone could think otherwise.

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All - Let's compare two random kids who just graduated from 8th grade. One kid graduated in 1850 and the other kid graduated in 2007. My contention is that in the areas of reading, writing and math, the 1850 kid will be better educated. That's fine if you want argue that kids today are smarter because we teach them about so many of the scientific advances made since 1850. It's just not comparing apples to apples, imo.

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Supposing that the average 8th grader was smarter then than now (which may or may not be the case, IDK), what percentage of people in the US got an 8th grade education back then? 5%? I think that might be generous.

Most people were basically illiterate by today's standards back then, and we think people are dumber now because they text people with "OMGWTFBBQ LOL"?

Edit: Reading further, I see others have basically already made this point. This whole argument reminds me of what tdarko said in some other thread about how some people just refuse to listen to reason no matter how obviously wrong they are.

[Blarg]

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I'd also posit pop psychology making people think they can't discipline their own kids and keep them from running around like wild animals, because it might cause the boogeyman to leap out of the closet and warp their kids' minds or something. We rely on experts and pseudo-experts way too much for even elementary things, and regarding kids, can easily feel like well-studied experts without having a clue or any control whatsoever on what's happening in our own families. We decide to feel good about trying, not about results.

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I don't get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that personal anecdotes are better and more reliable than large sample sizes? Also, you shouldn't lump "experts" with "pseudo experts"

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I didn't say anything about personal anecdotes or large sample sizes. I don't understand your post.

[Boris]

Mason - I have to go do important things but I'll be back later. I the mean time, you might want to re-read the article you cited.

Also, the argument here is about dumbing down. It's about lowering standards. The argument is not about public education infrastructure or access to public education.

whoops. edited.

[ocdscale]

I consider myself very bright. But I can't maintain my own car, I can't diagnose my own illnesses (with a high degree of confidence), I can't grow my own food or brew my own drinks. And frankly, although it might be fun to learn how, I have better things to do.
There is nothing wrong with specialization (to a degree).

I can do long division, but would I rather use a calculator? Of course. I can rummage through my shelves to find a map of the city, but would I rather google "mta nyc map," or god forbid, use Mapquest? Of course. I know how to find the word "sanctimonious" in the dictionary, and I can spell it correctly without much trouble (Hooked on Phonics!), but I have better things to do than worry about the spelling of a word when a spell-checker can do it for me.

Modern conveniences don't dumb people down any more than the printing press did (props to the above poster who first used this analogy).

I have to agree that the biggest factor is a culture of (intellectual) mediocrity. People grow up wanting to be a Rap mogul, NFL Quarterback, American Idol, or Survivor.
Not to rag on entertainment completely, shows like Myth Busters, Bill Nye, sites like HowStuffWorks show that there is still a strong undercurrent of curiosity in this country. I place the blame mostly on a lackluster national policy towards education (basically none). Not enough talented teachers are fostering children's natural curiosity. When teachers are boring, and movie stars are fun, it's easy to see why kids grow up shunning intellectual pursuits.

[Boris]

Triumph wrote " I also write better than 95% of people..."

Don't kid yourself buddy.

[Triumph36]

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Triumph wrote " I also write better than 95% of people..."

Don't kid yourself buddy.

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lol whatever dude - if you think it's any lower than 90%, you're insane. when i dominate the writing GREs I'll come back and post my score - i'm sure it'll be in the 90th percentile or higher.

i really wish there were some sort of prop bet i could make on this.

ps that's the subjunctive mood

[Boris]

When I refer to quality writing I'm not talking about Charles Dickens or Shakespeare and I'm not talking about Ye Olde Middle English. Jesus Christ.

I'm talking about breadth of vocabulary, sentence structure, ability to use metaphors, and overall clarity of thought.

[guids]

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When I refer to quality writing I'm not talking about Charles Dickens or Shakespeare and I'm not talking about Ye Olde Middle English. Jesus Christ.

I'm talking about breadth of vocabulary, sentence structure, ability to use metaphors, and overall clarity of thought.

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I fail to see how grammar/syntax/great use of the language should be placed higher up than any other random thing you are taught to memorize in school. As long as you can convey your point concisely, i see no need to read Shakespeare to be considered intelligent.