mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters - Page 15

pvn · #**141** 10-12-2007, 05:16 PM

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pvn- sorry, I thought this was a serious discussion. Judging by your tact, I take it that's not possible with you.

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Wait, are they drunk when they're in class? It hasn't been THAT long since I was in school, but we generally waited until after classes to start the HEAVY drinking.

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pointless blather.... nowhere did I suggest they're drunk in class. Nor is it relevent to anything I've said.

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You've said one of the reasons they shouldn't be allowed to have guns is because they're drunk and stupid. Then you said this thread was about being allowed to bring guns to school. I'm just putting your own scattered ideas together here. Do you deny these statements? They're right here in this thread.

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and you think beer = instant murder impulse

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I didn't say anything remotely like it. Wow, you really have to resort to some cheap tactics to try to make a reply don't you?

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"Drunk and stupid." A slur which you've freely smeared all students with.

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If more had access... what?

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I thought this part was clear?

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No, you didn't finish your sentence.

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There is a correlation between youth violence and access to firearms. I believe a larger armed youth population (particularly when paired with a group with increased access and use of alcohol) will lead to more needless firearm related violence.
(yes, I believe college students are young, slightly immature and more prone to irrational and violent behaviour then adults. This is, supported by studies as well but I doubt that interests you.)

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And yet, the facts show that those who are so inclined to violence already have guns or get them when they want them. Additional rules are basically only preventing normal, non-sociopathic people from carrying.

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I haven't seen anyone here advocate that "everyone" be compelled to carry.

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Where did I say compelled. You really can't respond to someone without changing what someone said. Rathar dishonest.

I said, "Some people think that we'd be better off if everyone carried guns." That is not the same as saying everyone should be compelled to carry guns.

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Since there are CLEARLY people who DO NOT WANT to carry guns, there is no way the goal of "everyone carrying guns" could be achieved without compulsion. Now, who here has said EVERYONE should carry guns? Please cite one instance.

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and, here's a quote from this thread: [ QUOTE ]
Most officers, myself included, prefer an armed public.

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This person in response to this thread said he prefers an armed public. Good enough for you?

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Fallacy of aggregation once again.

pvn · #**142** 10-12-2007, 05:17 PM

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I knew a 30-year old man who drove his car into a tree.

I can't believe that some people want 30-year-olds driving cars!

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exactly, we don't draw inferences from one example. But we do know that 30 year olds have less accidents then 16 year olds.

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But you want to draw inferences from your personal anecdotal impressions of college students as "drunk and stupid."

kurto · #**143** 10-12-2007, 05:17 PM

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Actually, the statistics from the Georgia DOT show that there is very little drop off between drivers who start at 16 and drivers who start at 25, the first three years are still the most dangerous, so I made the assumption that if we allow kids to start driving at 13, they would be safer drivers by 16.

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First, may I say I appreciate your tactics, whether or not you and I agree on the conclusions. I have forgotten how ridiculous and inflammatory this forum gets.

I think we can agree that at some point a person lacks the cognitive and motor skills needed as well as perhaps focus and maturity to drive cars. I'd be willing to wager large amounts of money that 10 year olds and 30 years olds would have substantially different accident rates.

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Back to your topic, I'm just saying, college students are legally adults, and they should be afforded all the rights granted in the Constitution.

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Let me start by saying that I was compelled to respond by the arguments of those (in the story posted as well as by something I believe you posted) that asserted the college would be safer if the students were armed. I'm not debating the constitution... I'm debating whether or not I think it would be wise to have an armed college populace. I based this on my experience at a private college AND on the findings of a study on youth violence.

I'm not arguing for anything more then saying I don't think its wise to want that group of people to be armed.

I don't think its much different then your statement, "I certainly met more than my fair share of people who should never own a gun, but that's my opinion."

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I'm of the opinion that I try to never do anything to someone else's rights that I wouldn't want done to my own.

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Well, as a society, we try to balance individual rights vs public safety. The fine details is where people disagree. I don't think most of us disagree that we don't want everyone to be able to have nukes. Perhaps we don't want everyone to have unfettered access to nerve gas? We probably all have different places where we'd draw the line.

I'm just suggesting that when it comes to private universities, I understand them wanting to draw the line at no firearms.

BCPVP · #**144** 10-12-2007, 05:18 PM

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College students aren't 'youths'? Isn't 'youth' typically denote people who are young? You don't agree that your average college student isn't young and, perhaps, relatively immature? More prone to irrational emotional reactions?

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What was the definition of "youth" used in this surgeon general report you mentioned? When I think of "youth", I think of 14 and younger, not adults.

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what about drunk and stupid college kids who already have a gun?

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What about them?

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Is your argument that my concern about the rationality of having a group who are still somewhat immature is invalid because you think they can't afford guns?

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My sample size may be limited, but of the people I know that are usually drunk and immature, the vast majority of them can't afford to drop a couple hundred on a gun. They may, at best, have a hunting rifle that was passed down to them (this is Wisconsin, after all), but those don't make great concealed carry weapons.

If you look at the crime rates for people with concealed carry permits, you'll find that they are quite responsible. It seems safe to say that at least some of them are college students. Now if the law says that it's ok for them to carry concealed on the street, why is it somehow not ok for them to carry on campus? And it's not just students who aren't allowed to carry. It's staff and teachers too. Are they too immature to handle carrying a weapon as well?

kurto · #**145** 10-12-2007, 05:34 PM

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That's the scary part.

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ha. good one.

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What does it matter?

[/ QUOTE ] it matters if it provides context to a statement.

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I actually addressed this, and pvn clarified that he was merely criticizing the school's decision, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do when a private entity does something you don't like.

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And I voiced why I supported the schools decision (that is, to not allow students to carry firearms) which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do when a private entity does something you find agreeable.

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From there, the discussion turned into whether or not the state should force citizens to refrain from carrying guns.

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Yet I never said anything of the sort. Perhaps you assumed I was saying something I wasn't? That's not uncommon here.

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Because the thread started by addressing something different, I can't comment on the specific topic at hand? I don't get this. That eliminates about 95% of all discussion on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ] You're welcome to comment on anything you want. I have been objecting to people mischaracterizing my statements.

Finally... you wrote-
"people [who are opposed to government gun restriction] would want college kids carrying firearms"

But you're having to add stuff to what I said which demonstrates the confusion. There are people who are asserting that we'd be safer if people were armed (including the college student in the story linked by the OP).

Here are examples from this thread:
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Exactly. I'd feel much safer walking around Philadelphia if I had a gun. And I don't blame any student (college or otherwise) for wanting to have a gun at his side after what's been going on the past years in this country.

People are less likely to commit violent crimes if they know that 95% of the people around them are armed.

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too bad there werent a few "gun toting conservative rednecks" in the building when virginia tech got shot up this summer..... perhaps they could have saved lives

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In the posts of dblbarrelJ he advocates that the more armed citizens are, the safer people are.

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Most officers, myself included, prefer an armed public.

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He prefers an armed public...

And then I directly replied to: "People are less likely to commit violent crimes if they know that 95% of the people around them are armed."

So I responded by giving my reasons why I didn't think this was the case if the "people armed" are college students.

I think you're doing too much reading between the lines if you think this is me being dishonest.

kurto · #**146** 10-12-2007, 05:35 PM

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So what statistics are there exactly, that prove that college students can't responsibly handle firearms?

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That's why I referred to the 2001 Surgeon General's Report on Youth Violence. I also made an argument based on my observations of college students behaviour. (note- I didn't say all college students acted one way or another, but as a group they are more prone to certain behaviours.)

BCPVP · #**147** 10-12-2007, 05:40 PM

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So what statistics are there exactly, that prove that college students can't responsibly handle firearms?

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That's why I referred to the 2001 Surgeon General's Report on Youth Violence. I also made an argument based on my observations of college students behaviour. (note- I didn't say all college students acted one way or another, but as a group they are more prone to certain behaviours.)

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If this is the report you're talking about, it's pretty clear that "youth" refers to high school and younger. So I don't see how it's really relevant to the discussion.

VayaConDios · #**148** 10-12-2007, 05:42 PM

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So what statistics are there exactly, that prove that college students can't responsibly handle firearms?

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I like how this thread has gone from a discussion about a private institution suspending a racist, sexist gun nut to"OMG IF YOU SUPPORT THIS DECISION THEN YOU THINK THAT ADULTS CAN'T RESPONSIBLY HANDLE GUNS." Well played, intellectually honest utopians.

kurto · #**149** 10-12-2007, 05:49 PM

last post to pvn. You suffer from comprehension issues as well as intellectual dishonesty.

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and you think beer = instant murder impulse

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I didn't say anything remotely like it. Wow, you really have to resort to some cheap tactics to try to make a reply don't you?

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"Drunk and stupid." A slur which you've freely smeared all students with.

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First of all, I did not say all college kids are drunk and stupid. Read it again.

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I used to marvel at impulsiveness and the stupidity of drunken college kids

[/ QUOTE ] Note... I'm talking about drunk college kids... not ALL college kids. Obviously you don't understand modifiers.

Second... even if I said all college kids were drunk and stupid, it still doesn't explain how you magically concluded that I said, "and you think beer = instant murder impulse"

I would suggest that alcohol is a contributing factor in violent incidents, but what would the point be? You would simply pretend I said something else.

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And yet, the facts show that those who are so inclined to violence already have guns or get them when they want them. Additional rules are basically only preventing normal, non-sociopathic people from carrying.

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Actually, the study showed that when people didn't have access to firearms, they blew off their anger in less harmful ways. Even normal people who are, perhaps less emotional mature then older adults coupled with being drunk, might abuse firearms? Even non-sociopaths have been known to do things in a drunken rage. Youth have more problems in these areas then adults. And they typically have less experience with alcohol. Hence my posts where I wonder about the logic of wanting a population of youth, who happen to be characterized by heavy drinking and lack of maturity, to be armed.

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Since there are CLEARLY people who DO NOT WANT to carry guns, there is no way the goal of "everyone carrying guns" could be achieved without compulsion. Now, who here has said EVERYONE should carry guns? Please cite one instance.

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In my original post to which you went on your sophomoric rant, I quoted someone suggesting that "People are less likely to commit violent crimes if they know that 95% of the people around them are armed."

My entire post was a response to this. If you stopped changing what I say and read the thread you'd be less confused.

kurto · #**150** 10-12-2007, 05:53 PM

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But you want to draw inferences from your personal anecdotal impressions of college students as "drunk and stupid."

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(1) I guess you've repeatedly missed the part where I refer to a large student on youth violence. Work on reading the whole post.
(2) My personal impression of college behaviour is substantially larger then one person observing HIS OWN personal actions. I've viewed the behaviour of hundreds if not thousands of college students. If it mattered, I could also link to statistics about college drinking and such but again... you seem disingenuous. what would be the point?