Yanks offer job to Girardi - Page 15

CharlieDontSurf · #**141** 10-31-2007, 03:56 AM

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it isn't total [censored] because they actually measured the impact of managers on similar teams as well as various other squads of players

managers all perform at basically the same level. the only adjustment that happens is that managers LOSE additional games by doing stupid [censored].

you could look it up if you cared enough to study the issue using the socratic method or you could just reference the great tim mccarver

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So basically your saying that Dusty Baker, if he makes the exact same in game calls/moves, has the same results as Joe Torre from 96-07 and the players perform exactly the same.

Or what he doesn't have exactly the same but has such a minimal effect that it is the difference of 1 game or less?

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you picked the actual worst possible manager. he is worth significantly less games to his team because he is a giant idiot.

anyway the yanks probably still make the playoffs with him as the manager despite being awful

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He is an idiot i assume in terms of managing a game...but that is taken out of the equation. so all that matters is his ability to handle the pressure/expectations, the in fighting in the front office/steiny/the egos/ the fighting amost the players/the media/etc and maintain control of his clubhouse and the club's psyche so that they are always focused on winning and playing at the best despite the fact that they may be 14 games out of 1st place etc.

And this is where i disagree.

You say Baker wins basically the same as Torre...I say not a chance. Switch LaRussa for Baker and I still say it holds because LaRussa quits after a couple of years.

Vyse · #**142** 10-31-2007, 03:59 AM

Winning breeds all the crap you're talking about.

It's really that simple.

CharlieDontSurf · #**143** 10-31-2007, 03:59 AM

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vyse
if a manager does absolutely nothing in terms of in-game strategy and etc. the team is actually better off. Few managers legitimately help their team.

So if Torre and Dusty Baker do nothing different in terms of in-game strategy and etc.(etc could be a lot of [censored] i guess)then their significance on the Yankees teams performance from 96-07 is the same in terms of helping the team win and be succesful.

This is essentially what I'm taking from Vyse and your argument.

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I don't think anybody would be able to make a case that it is that black and white, but I think (and could be wrong) the studies showed that it was negligible and/or wasn't measurable.

craig

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Were those studies specifically about the Yankees?

Cuz my argument with Vyse is in specific regards to the Yankee's mangerial position post 95,96. especially post 01 when their payroll was insane along with expectations and the FO in fighting/power struggle.

CharlieDontSurf · #**144** 10-31-2007, 04:01 AM

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Winning breeds all the crap you're talking about.

It's really that simple.

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???

Vyse · #**145** 10-31-2007, 04:14 AM

???

Dudd · #**146** 10-31-2007, 04:17 AM

This whole exchange is lol, well done everyone.

CharlieDontSurf · #**147** 10-31-2007, 11:57 AM

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which crap are u refering to

CharlieDontSurf · #**148** 10-31-2007, 12:57 PM

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"I'm not saying Joe Torre is a specific number of games won."

Yea dude, you are.

You are implying that Joe Torre is worth more than most great baseball players, as a manager.

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Actually Thay3r I'm not. I may not have written it out to be clear enough but my argument was that Joe Torre's value as a Yankee manager was > 0 and was a significant influence in them being so succesful over the last 10+ years. Despite the negatives he brought.

And that just any coach wouldn't have achieved the same results in part because if you put a different manager, say a Tom Coughlin/Bobby Knight type personality, as the manager of the team it is going to influence and affect the club differently and in my view have major negative influence on the teams performance.

TMTTR · #**149** 10-31-2007, 02:03 PM

I can't quantify Torre's value, but I am confident the Yankees would not have made the playoffs for 12 years in a row without Torre.

On the other hand, I think the Yankees may have gone further in the playoffs (or won the World Series) at least once in the past seven years if Torre was not the manager.

Grady Little averaged 85 wins in his two seasons as the Dodgers manager. Barring radical roster changes, I predict Torre fails to win 85 in 2008 (assuming he is signed on as Dodgers manager, of course).

Triumph36 · #**150** 10-31-2007, 02:27 PM

for all the hate Dusty Baker gets, he made it to a World Series and an LCS with different teams.

I am not saying he is a good manager. However, citing him as the worst manager of all time looks fairly foolish when you consider the relative success he's had - so yes, I think replacing Torre with Dusty Baker would've resulted in plenty of championships.

CDS, I'm waiting for some insider info that the Yankees couldn't've won without Torre - you know, someone that knows Jeter's friend's ex-girlfriend saying that if not for Joe, he would've never gotten Jeremy Giambi out - that sort of thing.