Two points against Intellectual property laws

[m_the0ry]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A temporary monopoly is no monopoly.

[/ QUOTE ]
War Is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show how the motive for the telephone was not profit and how Bell now maintains it's monopoly. mmmk thanks.

You forgot black is white.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show how the patent Bell had on the phone helped the consumer and the progression of technology via mandating that no competitive forces shall exist in the telephone market.

[kniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
and while the fda might not be perfect, im sure its there for a good reason.



Lol. The credulity you grant to the state amazes me.

"While the National Helium Reserve might not be perfect, I'm sure it's there for a good reason."
"While the Gestapo might not be perfect, I'm sure it's there for a good reason."

The FDA is there for a good reason; to employ a lot of bureaucrats and increase the power of politicians.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a discussion on patents, not on healthcare regulation. i honestly dont know enough about the process to argue about it, but my point is that there were certainly reasonable minds that came up with the fda, and certain events happened that made politicians call for it. yes yes, im sure your uber libertarian ideals would yield a better world cause the fda is mega inefficient, but ASSUME that fda regulations are a fixed part of a pharma company's costs. it has little to do with patents directly.

have to go, but quickly: my argument is not that "oh, compare ancient history where no patents, and now there are patents and techno wow!" my point there was to do exactly what you are saying: that comparing ancient history where there aren't patents yet inventions with todays world simply doesn't work. i was merely pointing out the exponential growth in recent history that occurred in lieu of patents.

and still waiting for you to articulate alternative systems plz.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
Being first to market is big advantage, true. It may be enough for big companies. What of the small guy? How does he create a distribution scheme to get his product out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's his problem. You want to subsidize poor competitors?

[ QUOTE ]
As soon as a big company saw it, it would be swept up with their version, marketed everywhere, done at low cost,

[/ QUOTE ]

OH NOES LOW PRICES!

[ QUOTE ]
Im not saying you should be concerned about trade secrets. Im saying that patent helps facilitate free flow of technological information.

[/ QUOTE ]

By placing restrictions on what people can do with that information? Where was the big problem with information sharing before patents?

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think its accurate to say that patent lets someone sit on their invention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? It's verifibly true. Of course, one can sit on an invention without a patent, too. But with a patent, one can forcibly prevent someone else from implementing that idea even if the other party developed the idea independently.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
your argument suggests that we should do away with the tax code because choosing x dollars/yr as a certain tax bracket is arbitrary, and y% is arbitrary, and 4k personal income tax credit is arbitrary. Why not 5k personal income tax credit? Some people live in more expensive housing regions, some in cheaper. NOT FAIR!!!!11111!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of reasons for getting rid of the tax code that have nothing to do with the rates being arbitrary.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, comon. bickering about the term of a patent that is not objectively unreasonable gets us nowhere

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, we should just stfu and accept your stipulations without justifications. Then we can get on with things. Oh, did you notice, it's not "objectively reasonable" either.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
im done arguing this, obv you think the artificial rights of patents are not worth it for whatever reason, fine. just a final point: 20th century saw the greatest breakthroughs in technology ever seen by a long shot. patents were in full effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greater than the wheel? Fire? The Scientific Method?

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A temporary monopoly is no monopoly.

[/ QUOTE ]
War Is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show how the motive for the telephone was not profit and how Bell now maintains it's monopoly. mmmk thanks.

You forgot black is white.

[/ QUOTE ]
My bad. Had the line in there but deleted it because my memory is a bit fuzzy on it being in there.

I have no idea why I need to show that the motive for the telephone was not profit. I've never made any claims that it wasn't and don't see what relevance that has with anything. Bell doesn't have a monopoly now, but while they did, consumers got the shaft.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
also, look to the technological breakthroughs of countries that didnt have strong patent regimes during this period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look to the technological breakthroughs of countries that didn't have McDonalds.

Corrolation does not prove causation.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]

the bottom line is you just say "no, im not worried," but you cant seem to come up with a single example in recent history that would suggest your system would be best.

[/ QUOTE ]

What system?

The fact that someone hasn't proposed something "better" (according to your subjective opinion) does not give you license to engage in aggressive behavior.

[ QUOTE ]
yes we have been inventing forever, but your only explanation for the incentive lies in the head start an inventor would have. the vast majority of technological innovations have occurred in the last 200 years when patent has been present in contemporary modern societies. applying the inventive history of our ancient ancestors is hardly support a change in our modern legal regime and modern economy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The vast majority of technological innovations have occured in the last 200 years since the Library of Congress was founded.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not a fan of monopolies, and if other legal models worked I'd be happy to hear it. But I think the incentive argument justifies it in the case of patent. sooooo saying my argument is flawed while not really providing an explanation of an alternative really gets us nowhere, even if you can cite a latin phrase.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your argument is flawed, it is flawed regardless of the existence of any alternative.

[ QUOTE ]
and while the fda might not be perfect, im sure its there for a good reason. there have been some terrible consequences of drug defects.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what good is the FDA then?

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize, I thought you were implying that IP and AC were incompatable.

[ QUOTE ]
Patents also act to destroy real property rights. If you claim that I cannot use my materials to build a wagon because you "own" the "idea" of the wagon wheel, you have obviously reduced my rights in my own physical property. Destroying rights in tangible property in deference to rights in some completely itagible concept seems incredibly dangerous to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, life is filled with peril.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's OK for you to engage in aggressive acts? "Hey, you might get hit by a falling rock, so I feel justified in mugging you!"

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t own the idea of the wagon wheel, I earned the right to exploit it commercially by coming up with it first. A patent doesn’t automagically bar competition in Stateland. In ACland A patent WILL NOT protect an inventor who isn’t doing anything with his invention. The same way a homesteader owns land because he got there first, a patent shows who thought it first. In ACland A patent holder should have to show that s/he is making an attempt at commercial use or licensing. The same way a homesteader must mix his labor with his land.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Who's granting patents in ACland?

[ QUOTE ]
There is a demand for wagon wheels, I invent them, but any Og can infringe my rights because of need? Sound familiar?

[/ QUOTE ]

Og has done nothing to infringe upon you. You have no right to restrain his activities that do not aggress against you. You have no right to exclusive trading in any given commodity, because to do so requires restraint on both buyers and sellers, neither of which have consented to such restraints.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you tell the fourth or fortieth generation after AC is established: “I know all the fertile land is taken, should have been born earlier, sucks to be you! I guess you could invent something to make a living, oops it really sucks to be you!. Get a job HYACHACHACHA!”

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, did I miss something? Is there some government agency passing out unclaimed land to anyone who wants some?

[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone labor on his own to come up with anything if anyone else can exploit it commercially?

[/ QUOTE ]

You say this like it's never happened.

Again,










[ QUOTE ]
In ACland the greedy, capitalist, competitive culture is overflowing with wealthy guys going around buying up patents from inventors just so he can prevent any and all new comers from making money and incidentally, not making any money himself, and of course there are plenty of lazy, not greedy, not competitive, brilliant/lucky inventors who go through the trouble of getting a patent to make that quick pay day? Again so what?

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? What patents are being bought in ACland? How are these patents used to prevent other people from doing stuff?

[ QUOTE ]
So If I invent a USB drive, any and all chip manufacturers are free to produce and sell as many as they want, because I still invented it? Where do you sell glory in ACland? Without IP protection there won’t be any competition. It doesn’t have to be state sanctioned any more than the intangible concept of owning property. Their physical property isn’t an intangible concept? At least in Stateland it’s mine if I pay my taxes. My understanding of AC is that it isn’t perfect. What do you suggest inventors do in order to compete with established companies? What’s the difference between state sanctioned violence and market sanctioned violence?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Selling glory? Market-sanctioned violence? Inventors wishing to compete will have to come up with their own ideas - that's part of competeing. Why is someone else required to do their homework for them?

[ QUOTE ]
Cliff notes: 1967 Invented intermittent wipers. Took them to Ford. Ford told him to leave the room. Ford invites him back in. Ford tells him they’re not interested. He leaves. 1969 Ford starts manufacturing his wipers. Other companies follow suit. He looses his mind trying to sue them and 25 other companies. 1990-1991 courts awarded 10 million from Ford and Crysler. 2005 he dies.

Wiki Passenger Vehicles in the United States According to my math: from 1969-1989 (20 years patent protection (25 years IMO for ACland or one generation if life spans/birth rates change)) 194 million vehicles were sold in the U.S. alone. That amounts to $0.10 a vehicle 25 years later. How this man was not robbed!. No new company no new employees no new market, but he sure still had his idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was he robbed of? He got $10 million??

[ QUOTE ]
IP doesn’t help innovation, it helps competition. It helps new un-established companies compete.

[/ QUOTE ]

It helps some people, at the expense of restraining others.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO it’s the other way around. Patents which expire and only protect commercial exploitation should exist. Copyrights (70 years + the life of the copyrighter) should not. How is it that Stephen Kings fiction is protected (his entire freaking life+!) but Joe Schmo USB drive is not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, first of all, copyright doesn't place restraints on those who may come up with an idea independently. Patents do.

[ QUOTE ]
What are you going to do to Og when he walks by an (your) apple tree and eats an apple? Tell him it’s yours because you planted it? How did he get it then? Don’t you realize that apples can grow without your labor (not economically scarce much)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apples are clearly scarce. If you take an apple from me, I no longer have it.

And labor is also scarce. I only get one shot at laboring for a particular hour. If someone else appropriates that labor, I miss out on it.