salary negotiation

[effang]

I think i left a bit on the table, but with so little inexperience, i could be wrong.

finance field, not i banking, hedge fund, or PE

70k base + 5k annual bonus.

This was throught a head hunter, so i told him that i know most original offers are at least 15-25% flexible. He didn't know really waht to say, but said he would bring it and see if he can get me 80k.

In the end, I have 75k base + similar bonus (so, about a 10% increase). So, not a significant advance. however, this is only my 2nd year in the work force, and for a 24 year old, sounds pretty good.

Am i being ridiculous? i'm assuming most of these negotiations aren't even relevant at the first/second year opportunities.

[suzzer99]

I had some experience, but not a ton, when I was offered a job with a large health care company a few years back. They offered $66k, I tried to get $70. No dice. I later found out they interviewed something like 33 people for that job before finding me. Yet still they were perfectly willing to let me walk for a measly $4k. So yeah, you probably did the best you could.

[jaydub]

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A bit out of topic, but I find absolutly amazing how much software engineers in the US make! Damn, I just make 39K here in Canada. Ok I'm a junior just out of university, but I graduated first of my class, got a lot of offers, negociated a lot and accepted the best offer at 39K. But making a six-figures salary here as a software developper will never happen. A senior can expect to make about 80 K, and only if he's great and essential.

Makes me want to move south.

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Really? I'm always shocked at how much non-software developers make. Some SW guy makes $70k but his garbage man makes $60k , the plumber makes $90k , the general contractor makes $150k . I just found out this guy I know who manages an RV park makes $200k !!!

Software is really a pretty [censored] job without much room for advancement unless you start your own company or get lucky at a startup.

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CB,

First, let's define the area of the salary. I will propose that we use a US city but not one of LA, SF, NY as they all have much higher costs of living.

Second, we need to define the company. I will offer a 100-200 employee technology firm as a starting point.

Third, we need to specify what kind of SE we are talking about. 2+2 is a young crowd so we will start with the fresh college grads.

Joe MIT who graduates near the top of his class in CompSci will make 70-90K to start. He can get a lead / senior engineer position in 2-4 years bumping him to 90-110K. From there we have options of Project Manager (120-160K), Architect(110-160K), and many more too numerous to list but similar in comp. From here we get to the various VP titles which can quickly get one to 200K+.

Now let's take Pete Learning Tree U. He gets no 4 year degree but maybe a little community college before heading to a trade school like LTU. He takes a few VB.NET courses and gets a jr programmer position at the same firm for $40K. If he's good he may be able to follow a track similar to Joe MIT but at a lower starting base. But more likely than not, he tops out 10-15 years later as a lead making ~90K adjusted for inflation.

The LTU grad will fit your perception but the MIT one will not.

J

[suzzer99]

jaydub, I agree with most everything you until this "But more likely than not, he tops out 10-15 years later as a lead making ~90K adjusted for inflation." From my experience I've seen very little correlation between education level and being a good programmer. And the nice thing about programming is that if you can hack it, you'll rise up (barring the usual office politics, etc.). If you can't hack it, you'll be discovered pretty soon. You can only wave your hands and say fancy-sounding buzzwords for so long.

I agree it's possibly more likely that Pete may top out at 90k, simply because he hasn't shown as much ambition at this point. But that could apply to any field. It's nothing like say, some lawyer from a bottom-of-the-barrel diploma mill dreaming to make partner someday at a huge law firm. This is virtually impossible right?

Also, Joe MIT guy is very likely to be in SF/Sili-Valley/NY/LA, maybe Boston/Seattle (any others still going strong?) if he's serious about capitalizing on his expensive education.

[natedogg]

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A bit out of topic, but I find absolutly amazing how much software engineers in the US make! Damn, I just make 39K here in Canada. Ok I'm a junior just out of university, but I graduated first of my class, got a lot of offers, negociated a lot and accepted the best offer at 39K. But making a six-figures salary here as a software developper will never happen. A senior can expect to make about 80 K, and only if he's great and essential.


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Don't be so sure. I know a couple canadians who make 150/hr contracting to american companies.

natedogg

[natedogg]

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I just got semi-hosed and I need some opinions - I just got an 11%ish raise retro active to 12/05/06 (all paid up) - then I just got "promoted" to another department but HR and my current boss are saying that because I just got a raise and the new job actually has a range that overlaps where I'm at now - no new raise. But.... my curent position gets promoted in 4-7 months.

Should I at least try to find out the range of my new job and fight for some more now and more soon - or just mention that I'd be looking for a very "solid" increase when I'm up for a promotion in 4-7 months?

Bottom Line - I think even though I may overlap the range - I may be near the bottom for the new position and want to get the best bump when the interim position is promoted.

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The best way to get a raise is to jump companies. Period. 99% of the time your current company will not give you even half the raise you can get by just getting a new job elsewhere.
natedogg

[Shoe]

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Should I at least try to find out the range of my new job and fight for some more now and more soon - or just mention that I'd be looking for a very "solid" increase when I'm up for a promotion in 4-7 months?

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I don't have much to offer this thread, other than this: If you are working at a job, and don't know what the salary range is for your position, ask your boss or HR to find out. The salary range is not taboo, you have a right to know this (not legally but every decent company I have worked for will openly share this when asked). If your company refuses to tell you, you probably want to start looking for a better employer.

[jaydub]

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jaydub, I agree with most everything you until this "But more likely than not, he tops out 10-15 years later as a lead making ~90K adjusted for inflation." From my experience I've seen very little correlation between education level and being a good programmer.


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I pointed that out that possibility when I said:

"If he's good he may be able to follow a track similar to Joe MIT but at a lower starting base."

Also keep in mind I was pointing at the extremes, eg Carl USC exists as well.

What is your experience?

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And the nice thing about programming is that if you can hack it, you'll rise up (barring the usual office politics, etc.). If you can't hack it, you'll be discovered pretty soon. You can only wave your hands and say fancy-sounding buzzwords for so long.


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Programming skill becomes less and less relevant as one advances. Even as early as a lead engineer, other skills can be primary.

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I agree it's possibly more likely that Pete may top out at 90k, simply because he hasn't shown as much ambition at this point.


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It's more than that, if he wound up at LTU and not a 4 year, he most likely [censored] around in HS and got [censored] grades. Now, he may turn his life around but people who [censored] up in HS tend to [censored] up later as well. Same with college.

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But that could apply to any field. It's nothing like say, some lawyer from a bottom-of-the-barrel diploma mill dreaming to make partner someday at a huge law firm. This is virtually impossible right?


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You're asking the wrong guy.

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Also, Joe MIT guy is very likely to be in SF/Sili-Valley/NY/LA, maybe Boston/Seattle (any others still going strong?) if he's serious about capitalizing on his expensive education.

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It depends.

J

[cbloom]

Okay, this isn't the perfect spot but I don't want to start a new thread, and Diablo and maybe others are experts on this stuff :

I have an opportunity to join a tech/media startup as a key figure. I would be the chief technologist and build the tech team etc. There would be something like 6-10 key people in the startup, and obviously I'm not the one putting up the money or with the idea for the company or getting it all together. Obviously the VC's and other people putting up the money are taking a big %, and the guy whose idea it is will take a big %, etc. I've never joined a startup this early before so I don't know what's standard.

What kind of ownership % should I expect? I know there's a HUGE range here and I can easily get lowballed.

Also, is it reasonable to demand to know the %'s that other people are getting so I can compare?

[NajdorfDefense]

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I had some experience, but not a ton, when I was offered a job with a large health care company a few years back. They offered $66k, I tried to get $70. No dice. I later found out they interviewed something like 33 people for that job before finding me. Yet still they were perfectly willing to let me walk for a measly $4k.

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I'm sure they gave you that impression, but that doesn't mean it was true, fyi. Just because someone can't get the 'final number' they wanted, does not mean it was unobtainable.