WOW just saw the anti net-neutrality "mumbo jumbo" ad

[pvn]

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No, it's not. You want to tell other people what business model to use. That's pretty much all there is to it.

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No that's not it at all. There is exactly one business model that is prohibited, and that is an ISP leveraging their monopoly status to gain an unfair advantage in another market.

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Again, the core problem is identified, but the proposed solution ignores it. If you don't want companies "leveraging their monopoly status" then why would you propose anything other than taking that monopoly status away?!?

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I say this is more realistic, because it in fact has already happened. The average call quality of Vonage calls on Comcast lines decreased markedly when Comcast started rolling out their own "Digital Voice" VoIP service.

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Is there any actual data about this? FWIW, I have vonage and comcast (I've been a 2-line vonage subscriber since 2002) and I am aware of the anecdotal data, but I haven't seen any problems myself.

And if there IS data, all it does is confirm what you've already mentioned - if you give a company monopoly protection, they will leverage it.

[DVaut1]

Fair enough. I should relax.

But the way I see, barca says something sort of snarky, then pvn (fairly) asks for an example of a naturally occuring monopoly -- so at this point, the ACist has actually taken the higher road and more respectable path, while the ACist critic has taken the low road. There wasn't a need to jump in there, and the "BOOM HEADSHOT!" seemed particularly out of place, since it wasn't really what I could call a great example of pwnage and mostly seemed like pointless 'cheerleading', i.e. obnoxious and useless noise meant to give a perceived weight to whatever your ideological ally said.

But, I agree this forum is nothing more than a circle jerk, and I know I've engaged in less than savory behavior here akin to what I'm criticizing, so yeah, it's fair to say I'm a hypocrite and I should relax. Consider my interjection inappropriate and forget I said anything.

[Meech]

There is no competition.

I distrust both sides.

[pvn]

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There is no competition.

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And the reason for that is...

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I distrust both sides.

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Me too. Which is why I oppose trusting the construction of some elaborate set of rules and why I oppose trusting the companies with monopoly power. You say you distrust both, but support a plan which rests on trust in one.

[Meech]

I don't view it that way.

#1 - AntiNN strengthens the monopoly.
#2 - AntiNN puts 100% trust in corporations who's history isn't the greatest.
#3 - AntiNN does nothing, zip, natha to enhance/foster competition.
#4 - AntiNN is the first step down the slippery slope of censorship.
#5 - You talk smack about the FCC, well once the packets are being opened and discriminated what do you think is going to happen?

You view AntiNN as forcing a business model down the company's throats. I view AntiNN as a company forcing it's entire agenda down customers throats.

You speak like you are anti-monopoly, but turn around and directly support the monopolists. They don't want this because of increased competition, they want a new Tony Soprano modeled income stream.

In my view, NN is more akin to internet anarchy. That's what I want.

[pvn]

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I don't view it that way.

#1 - AntiNN strengthens the monopoly.

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Assuming the monopoly protections are left in place.

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#2 - AntiNN puts 100% trust in corporations who's history isn't the greatest.

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Assuming the monopoly protections are left in place.

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#3 - AntiNN does nothing, zip, natha to enhance/foster competition.

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And neither does NN.

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#4 - AntiNN is the first step down the slippery slope of censorship.

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Assuming the monopoly protections are left in place.

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#5 - You talk smack about the FCC, well once the packets are being opened and discriminated what do you think is going to happen?

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If the monopoly protections were not left in place?

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You view AntiNN as forcing a business model down the company's throats.

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Do you deny this?

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I view AntiNN as a company forcing it's entire agenda down customers throats.

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And why is that company in a position where it *can* force that agenda down someone's throat?

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You speak like you are anti-monopoly, but turn around and directly support the monopolists. They don't want this because of increased competition, they want a new Tony Soprano modeled income stream.

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You present a false dichotomy. DYSW?

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In my view, NN is more akin to internet anarchy.

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Call it what ever you want.

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That's what I want.

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That's what this is really about. Getting what *you* want.

[iron81]

Meech, you have to understand where PVN is coming from. I doubt he actually cares about NN and I would be surprised if he's in favor of NN. He is arguing with you to advance his larger anti-government agenda. He wants to convince you that A. government is stupid, B. therefore we should get rid of it and C. The best way to do that is Anarcho-Capitalism.

[pvn]

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Meech, you have to understand where PVN is coming from. I doubt he actually cares about NN and I would be surprised if he's in favor of NN. He is arguing with you to advance his larger anti-government agenda. He wants to convince you that A. government is stupid, B. therefore we should get rid of it and C. The best way to do that is Anarcho-Capitalism.

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No.

Anarchocapitalism is not a requirement for what I am arguing here. You can do what I'm advocating while retaining "government". My argument is that treating symptoms is a waste when the cause of the problem is known and itself treatable.

Now, that said, if you do get rid of government, you get this for free as a bonus.

[Meech]

The reality is that the monopolies will stay in place. In utopia, we'd have infinate choices. Aint gonna happen. This kinda negates all your arguments.

If you think that passage of this bill will somehow magically create competition, dude you swallowed the wrong pill.

[ShakeZula06]

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Fair enough. I should relax.

But the way I see, barca says something sort of snarky, then pvn (fairly) asks for an example of a naturally occuring monopoly -- so at this point, the ACist has actually taken the higher road and more respectable path, while the ACist critic has taken the low road.

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Meh, snarky comments are very common on both sides. While somedays when I'm in a bad mood they effect me, the rest of time I just accept that this the internet where no one is face to face and very few no anyone in real life on this board. What results is well, what you would assume would result. I will admit that they are tiresome at times.
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There wasn't a need to jump in there, and the "BOOM HEADSHOT!" seemed particularly out of place, since it wasn't really what I could call a great example of pwnage and mostly seemed like pointless 'cheerleading', i.e. obnoxious and useless noise meant to give a perceived weight to whatever your ideological ally said.


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It's just that we've been down this road many time DV, and I'm sure you know this too. A statist starts speaking on the devils of the natural monopoly, and then when asked for an example of a natural monopoly without any intervention of the state, and to my knowledge no one has ever given an answer to that.
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But, I agree this forum is nothing more than a circle jerk, and I know I've engaged in less than savory behavior here akin to what I'm criticizing, so yeah, it's fair to say I'm a hypocrite and I should relax.

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No, you took what I said out of context. That's what some of the, let's say holier then everyone else, high and mightey statists have called us ACists before. I'm not calling anyone a hypocrite, and certainly wouldn't call you one, just saying I see juvenile douchebag as a step up from 'circle jerk of teenage sychophants'. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Peace and love brotha