Who is a better hitter? (Poll)

[Pudge714]

Brag: I'm the second best poster in this thread.

[Neuge]

Holy [censored]. It took me a while before I realized this thread was a year old, but some of this "analysis" was tilting me so hard. I had at least 10 posts marked out to ridicule and refute, but I'm not going to now.

Better debate, motorholdem vs. Schwartzy. Who has a higher VORP (value over replacement poster)?

I say motorholdem.

[Jack of Arcades]

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OMG this thread put me on tilt really hard.

Why oh why oh why didn't anyone just say "you know its harder to hit a HR than a single, and that people who can do harder things are better than people who can't, right?"

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Trying to get someone to explain their thought process is more productive, especially when they fail to do so repeatedly.

[ArcticKnight]

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OMG this thread put me on tilt really hard.

Why oh why oh why didn't anyone just say "you know its harder to hit a HR than a single, and that people who can do harder things are better than people who can't, right?"

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Your logic falls a bit short....It's harder to hit a triple than a HR...

[Neuge]

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OMG this thread put me on tilt really hard.

Why oh why oh why didn't anyone just say "you know its harder to hit a HR than a single, and that people who can do harder things are better than people who can't, right?"

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Your logic falls a bit short....It's harder to hit a triple than a HR...

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This year, Dunn has 2 3Bs and 40 HRs in 522 ABs. Ichiro has 7 triples and 6 HRs in 648 ABs. I'll leave you to calculate the weighted averages there.

[ArcticKnight]

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Until the question gets clarified, I'm going with he-who-gets-the-most-hits is the better hitter, or he-who-has-best-batting-average is the best hitter.

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I'm going to open a dialogue with you now, since you seem to ignore Jack of Arcades.

Why does the quantity of hits matter, but not the quality?

Answer this one question. You haven't addressed it at all.

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The question was “who is the better hitter”. And the choices were Ichiro or Dunn.

Everything is clear except for the parameters of what “better” and what “hitter” means.

I think we could all find statistical answers that clearly point to Ichiro or Dunn if the following questions were asked:

1. Who is the best power hitter
2. Who is the best clutch hitter
3. Who is the best hitter with RISP
4. Who is the slugger
5. Who is the best opposite field hitter
6. Who is the best home rune hitter
7. Who is the best triples hitter
8. Who is the best doubles hitter
9. Who is the best singles hitter

(some of the above overlap)

Unfortunately, the question didn’t ask anyone the above questions. So, based on the question given, we have to focus on hitting.
A hit = getting on base without and error (or walk).
In order to see who is better at it, one can’t consider “quality” of hits in this question. The OP simplified to who hits better. The best measure of better under this context is quantity, but quantity doesn’t factor in what might be an unequal # of at bats. So instead, you then look to average. The caveat with average, though, is that you must also consider similar sample sizes (and that is why they have min plate appearances, as you all know).

Here is my response, and it is totally consistent with my arguement above.
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If the question was who is better power hitter, clutch hitter, RBI producer, RISP, etc then perhaps the answer changes.

Until the question gets clarified, I'm going with he-who-gets-the-most-hits is the better hitter, or he-who-has-best-batting-average is the best hitter. On either counts, Ichiro wins.
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Would I rather have person "A" a .290/175hit/40HR/130RBI guy on my team than than person "B" a .330/205/12HR/75RBI. Yes. So quality clearly matters.

Is person A or Person B a better hitter? It all goes back to defining "better" and "hitter."

I clearly acknowledge that my answer is based on the wording of the question...

Finally, address the outstanding question to me, does quality of hits matter? Yes in baseball, but not in this question.

Now if some of you still wnat to argue my point on "quality" (yes in baseball, no in this question), then at least be fair and say that it is no longer a baseball debate, but a semantics one.

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I think Motorholdem beats JoA with this one. He puts up a good fight against two or three SABR tooth tigers.

PS. Kyleb's question caused most of the grief...lol

[ArcticKnight]

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OMG this thread put me on tilt really hard.

Why oh why oh why didn't anyone just say "you know its harder to hit a HR than a single, and that people who can do harder things are better than people who can't, right?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic falls a bit short....It's harder to hit a triple than a HR...

[/ QUOTE ]
This year, Dunn has 2 3Bs and 40 HRs in 522 ABs. Ichiro has 7 triples and 6 HRs in 648 ABs. I'll leave you to calculate the weighted averages there.

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Nuege, was does weighted averages have to do with " people who can do harder things are better than people who can't" statement?

I agree Dunn is a better hitter, but Ichiro is better at hitting triples, and triple are harder to hit than homeruns. Therefore "people who can do harder things are better than people who can't," is an incorrect statement on your part, and not a good way to "simplify" the debate.

[Jack of Arcades]

When someone asks "who is the better hitter?" the question is usually meant to be interpreted broadly. Hitting encompasses many things, yet motorholdem decided to interpret the question as narrowly as possible.

Why would kyleb even ask the question if he meant to ask who is better at hitting for average? The answer would obviously be Ichiro!, and there is no need to ask it.

Furthermore, he based the entire argument on the idea that neither "better" nor "hitter" had been defined. He continued to stick by this even after kyleb laughed at him.

It's all just baffling.

[Neuge]

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OMG this thread put me on tilt really hard.

Why oh why oh why didn't anyone just say "you know its harder to hit a HR than a single, and that people who can do harder things are better than people who can't, right?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic falls a bit short....It's harder to hit a triple than a HR...

[/ QUOTE ]
This year, Dunn has 2 3Bs and 40 HRs in 522 ABs. Ichiro has 7 triples and 6 HRs in 648 ABs. I'll leave you to calculate the weighted averages there.

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Nuege, was does weighted averages have to do with " people who can do harder things are better than people who can't" statement?

I agree Dunn is a better hitter, but Ichiro is better at hitting triples, and triple are harder to hit than homeruns. Therefore "people who can do harder things are better than people who can't," is an incorrect statement on your part, and not a good way to "simplify" the debate.

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It's probably a bit over simplistic to say "people who can do harder things are better than people who can't", but it doesn't mean in an absolute sense. It means taking the weighted average of all the events, with respect to their difficulty, and saying that one is "better at doing more difficult things, on average." That was the fallacy motorholdem et al. were using in this thread, i.e. contending that batting average more accurately represented "better hitter." Basically, things like VORP, EqA, and wOBA more accurately correlate to "total offensive contribution" than BA and other random presumptive biases motorholdem et al. came up with.

Dunn is, on average, better at doing the more difficult hitting things than Ichiro is. That is to say, the relative amounts of times Dunn hits 1B, 2B, 3B, and HR, and walks leads to more runs and wins than the relative amounts of times Ichiro does those same things. Hence he does, on average, the more difficult things.

[THAY3R]

Neuge,

Stop trying to stand up for your silly original wording and just admit you meant "more valuable" not "more difficult" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]