Contraversial AC Related Thread (TL;PR)

[wtfsvi]

I don't falsely classify violent enforcement of property rights as violence. It's quite clearly violence. I don't know how you can disagree.

Did you only read that one post? The point of constructing the argument for statism is to show the ACists that they don't have the moral high ground over statists that they think they have. That doesn't mean I don't think I have the moral high ground over statists I think I have [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[MrBlah]

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I don't falsely classify violent enforcement of property rights as violence. It's quite clearly violence. I don't know how you can disagree.

Did you only read that one post? The point of constructing the argument for statism is to show the ACists that they don't have the moral high ground over statists that they think they have. That doesn't mean I don't think I have the moral high ground over statists I think I have [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I think it's reasonable to axiomatically conjecture everybody owning his own body and nobody else's. If you reject this, then you might argue that anarchists don't have moral high ground over statists (however, I'd be really interested in your reasoning behind dismissing this position).

If you agree to this position, then please deduce how property rights are violence.

[wtfsvi]

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I think it's reasonable to axiomatically conjecture everybody owning his own body and nobody else's. If you reject this, then you might argue that anarchists don't have moral high ground over statists (however, I'd be really interested in your reasoning behind dismissing this position).

If you agree to this position, then please deduce how property rights are violence.

[/ QUOTE ] I obviously think anarchists have moral high ground over statists if we agree that everyone owns their own body. I don't agree that anarcho capitalists have the same high ground.

Lets say I walk into your house while you are out, sit down and watch some TV. You see, I don't have cable at home. Now you come home, and you want to use violence against me. Please deduce how your self ownership leads to this violence being acceptable [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] - Note that at the same time, you need to explain why all other forms of violently imposing your views on me is not acceptable. (You want to violently impose your view that I can't sit in your livng room and watch TV, but you don't think it's ok for other people to violently impose other views that they feel just as strongly about. How come? And where is your moral high ground? "My moral views are right, and their moral views are wrong. That's why I get to violently impose mine!"? lol)

[MrBlah]

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Lets say I walk into your house while you are out, sit down and watch some TV. You see, I don't have cable at home. Now you come home, and you want to use violence against me. Please deduce how your self ownership leads to this violence being acceptable [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] - Note that at the same time, you need to explain why all other forms of violently imposing your views on me is not acceptable. (You want to violently impose your view that I can't sit in your livng room and watch TV, but you don't think it's ok for other people to violently impose other views that they feel just as strongly about. How come? And where is your moral high ground? "My moral views are right, and their moral views are wrong. That's why I get to violently impose mine!"? lol)

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What if I spent a day climbing a tree and picking 10 apples. As I'm about to eat them you come up and threaten me with violence if I don't hand them over to you. Without me using my body and my ideas on how to climb a tree, you wouldn't have (direct) access to the apples, so aren't you essentially claiming a part of my body as your own? Isn't that like you forcing me to climb the tree and pick some apples for you? There are no goods without labour. Stealing a good from me is like forcing me to work for you in order to procure that good, i.e. it's like claiming part of my body as your own.

For the record, if you are sitting in my living room, I don't think I'm allowed to use violence against you. I may ask you to leave and use violence if you refuse to. I may ask you to pay for the lock that you have broken while entering. I might ask you for chipping in on the cable bill. If you refuse these requests I might sue you and use violence in order to make up for my losses as a last resort.

[wtfsvi]

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What if I spent a day climbing a tree and picking 10 apples. As I'm about to eat them you come up and threaten me with violence if I don't hand them over to you.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course I can't threaten you with violence. Of course you get to use violence to protect yourself if I threaten you with violence. Threatening you with violence to get the fruits of your labor is pretty much like threatening you with violence to work for me. I agree with that. Taking your apples without without using or threatening with violence (unless you are starving), on the other hand, is more like tricking you to work for me. It might not be ok, but that doesn't mean violence is an appropriate response.

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For the record, if you are sitting in my living room, I don't think I'm allowed to use violence against you. I may ask you to leave and use violence if you refuse to.

[/ QUOTE ] ldo

[pvn]

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So you can enter his house and stand over him while he's sleeping at night, right?

[/ QUOTE ] Don't know what you mean by "can". Are you asking if I think it's ok to do that? No, I don't. That doesn't mean I think it's ok for him to kill me if I do it.

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Moving the goalposts again? First it was "removal by force" now it's "kill."

[wtfsvi]

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So you can enter his house and stand over him while he's sleeping at night, right?

[/ QUOTE ] Don't know what you mean by "can". Are you asking if I think it's ok to do that? No, I don't. That doesn't mean I think it's ok for him to kill me if I do it.

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Moving the goalposts again? First it was "removal by force" now it's "kill."

[/ QUOTE ] I apologized for that already [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[pvn]

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Well you said "Doesn't matter where I step, as long as it's not on you. "

[/ QUOTE ] That was when we were talking about if he was justified in using violence against me

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So standing right next to him in his house is OK according to you as long as you don't actually touch him.

[/ QUOTE ] No. I don't think it's OK. But a lot of things are not OK with me. Doesn't mean I get to kill people who do them.

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Please cite any instance of me endorsing the idea that property owners automatically get a free pass at shooting trespassers.

[pvn]

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Well you said "Doesn't matter where I step, as long as it's not on you. "

[/ QUOTE ] That was when we were talking about if he was justified in using violence against me

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So standing right next to him in his house is OK according to you as long as you don't actually touch him.

[/ QUOTE ] No. I don't think it's OK.

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Do you think it's OK to stand in his back yard? What about if he shouts out of his house, "hey that's my yard move off my property" Is it OK for you to stay?

[/ QUOTE ] Depends on too many things. What is he doing there? I don't know why it matters to you what I think is OK, anyway.

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Because you're telling me that things that I'm doing (actually, you're putting words into my mouth, but we'll let that slide) are wrong. I don't think it's unreasonable in these situations where you're making declarations for people to ask you to be a little more specific about what is and is not good or bad (or acceptable or unacceptable, or whatever).

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As long as I recognize that that is my subjective opinion, and I don't get to back it with violence when someone disagrees with me. (And no. Standing in the back yard is not violence.)

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Can I build a meth lab in your backyard? How about having a rock concert? Your backyard is the perfect size for the venue I need. Don't tase me, bro!

[pvn]

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Where are all these AC advocates of murdering people for tresspassing then?

[/ QUOTE ] Sorry. Exchange "shoot" with any form of violence you prefer.

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Any form? If it's OK for me to physically pick someone up and move them, it's OK for me to shoot them in the head?