Pokerbots, the truth from the source

[DeathDonkey]

Alex,

Thanks for an extremely informative and interesting post, I would just like to point out that the thread you mention regarding players with similar PokerTracker stats being accused of bots was one of the catalysts for several of those accounts being shut down by Full Tilt for using bots. I'm sure with your expertise using PT stats as a means of identifying bots is primitive and flawed, but the fact is in that particular case those stats were a clue that resulted in Full Tilt making a conclusive determination that several of the accounts mentioned were in fact using bots.

-DeathDonkey

[Tendencies]

As a former security specialist at Paradise Poker I find it hard to believe that a person with such bad grammar and command of English was in a position such as the one you claim. One of the main duties of mine while I was employed by Paradise Poker through Sportingbet.com (prior to being changed to Boss Media) was the detection of bots. I also tested many bots against the Paradise Poker software to determine whether our tools/techniques were detecting them as efficiently as possible. Paradise Poker had been around a lot longer than many of today's sites and had a huge arsenal of tools, techniques and methods for detecting bots. And here's the cruncher, if you were detected as a bot you were temporarily closed and told to remove the program. You got caught again, you were closed for good. Paradise Poker scanned accounts on log in and play, each time an account was active on the tables all data from the client computer was recorded and analysed to detect bot activity. Real time reports were generated from this information and investigated 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

In my opinion your post is a collection of second hand information and hearsay. It's possible that you did work in the industry but I can't believe that you worked for one of the top three poker sites because the chances that any of the major poker sites would allow bots to actively play once detected, whether they are winning accounts or not is slim to none.

If anyone doubts my credentials as a former security employee of Paradise Poker I will be more than willing to forward proof.

[Tendencies]

[ QUOTE ]
d

I had access to the complete source code,

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote alone makes me believe that you are spouting rubbish

[qpw]

As a result of reading this thread yesterday I went and had a look at the cheaters' site.

Two things I noticed:

1) There seems to be a thriving community of 'botters.

2) It's been going on since at latest 2005.

Now as an analyst for many years I find it amazing that the poker sites cannot easily identify 'bots, no matter how stealthy they try to be - there are just too many things that can give them away, and too many traps that can be set for them.

Given that the fundamental logic of a poker-room operator who says: "so long as I'm not losing more money because the 'bots are frightening away players than I am making from their activities, it is in my best interest not to be pro-active in 'bot detection" is sound, if not as ethical as one might wish, a lot of what the OP wrote rings true.

It's hard to see how such a site could exist, especially over the course of a couple of years, if the poker sites were being diligent in their bot detection.

As to the idea that they may be trying to get rid of consistent winners, I agree that sounds unlikely, but looking at the problems some people have cashing out, you do wonder!

[qpw]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe that a person with such bad grammar and command of English was in a position such as the one you claim
[ QUOTE ]
d

I had access to the complete source code,

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote alone makes me believe that you are spouting rubbish

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither of these these objections make sense.

If a person is a technical specialist in the security department of an organisation there is no reason why:

1) They need to be particularly good at English (it may not be their first language).

2) They would not have access to the complete source code (at least as it applies to the server and client - you would not expect them to have access to the financial side code).

Just because they have access to it to check for loopholes does not mean that they are in a position to change it without going through normal audited controls (or, more likely, simply making reccomendation to the programming department via management)!

Some of the OP's other claims sound a little suspect but there's nothing unreasonable about the two things mentioned here.

[Tendencies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe that a person with such bad grammar and command of English was in a position such as the one you claim
[ QUOTE ]
d

I had access to the complete source code,

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote alone makes me believe that you are spouting rubbish

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither of these these objections make sense.

If a person is a technical specialist in the security department of an organisation there is no reason why:

1) They need to be particularly good at English (it may not be their first language).

2) They would not have access to the complete source code (at least as it applies to the server and client - you would not expect them to have access to the financial side code).

Just because they have access to it to check for loopholes does not mean that they are in a position to change it without going through normal audited controls (or, more likely, simply making reccomendation to the programming department via management)!

Some of the OP's other claims sound a little suspect but there's nothing unreasonable about the two things mentioned here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may think that these two points do not make sense but I can assure you that to hold a position in one of the top three sites as claimed by the OP a suitable candidate would require excellent English to be able to interact effectively in an industry that is predominantly and almost exclusively English (haven't we all seen in the T+C; English only at the tables as ordered by the top three sites)I can assure you that such a position if advertised would include in the job requirements "Excellent command of English"
Actually why not apply for a Job and find out.

To have access to the source code in which the OP claims, he would need extremely high clearance. Even the Head of Security at Paradise Poker did not have access to the source code used. Which is why it is almost impossible to believe that any of the top three sites with their vetting procedures and profiling of candidates for such a position would hire a person who is likely to divulge such sensitive information.

Ok I admit that it is not impossible but it is highly implausible that this guy ever worked for who he says he did.
Whether he was a top hand security guy/black belt ninja/area 51 operative or any of the other mocking titles he has been given on this thread there is no chance that his below quote is true regarding developers not knowing about him or what he did. I work in this industry and none of the top three sites operate such cloak and dagger hokum. Remeber what the OP stated "Top three site" Not some fly by night backwater site in a third world country. The risk of such information being divulged if true would destroy a multi-billion making company. The top three sites are happy to make their income legitimately through rake, would you kill your golden goose?

[ QUOTE ]
Not just any employee. I worked in the so called black-belt investigation team, which is very technical team, close to development, but not visible/known neither to them, nor to other teams dealing with these matters.[ QUOTE ]

[qpw]

[ QUOTE ]
You may think that these two points do not make sense but I can assure you that to hold a position in one of the top three sites as claimed by the OP a suitable candidate would require excellent

[/ QUOTE ]
Which are the top three sites?

Full Tilt, P Startrs and Party P?

Where are they located?

I can't speak for any particular sites and it's true that employers do ask for some ****ing stupid qualifications, but the OP has a good working ability with English provided he's not involved with face to face customer support.

I've certainly worked with ESL people with a similar grasp of English without any problems whatsoever.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually why not apply for a Job and find out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting my English is inadequate?

[ QUOTE ]
To have access to the source code in which the OP claims, he would need extremely high clearance. Even the Head of Security at Paradise Poker did not have access to the source code used. Which is why it is almost impossible to believe that any of the top three sites with their vetting procedures and profiling of candidates for such a position would hire a person who is likely to divulge such sensitive information.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't extrapolate everything from one site.

I can see no reason why a technical specialist would not have read access to the complete source code of the relevant sub-systems involved. Some people are absurdly paranoid, true, and many look to the wrong enemy, certainly. What would be the point of denying a security specialist access to the relevant code?

You're going to have to tell him what procedures are in place, otherwise he could spend all his time telling you to do things you already do. Given that, what the particular lines of C++ (or whatever) look like is neither here nor there.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I admit that it is not impossible but it is highly implausible that this guy ever worked for who he says he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

I entirely agree that a lot of his 'secret squirrel' stuff is absurd, particularly the bit about being 'close to development but not known to them' - how would that work?

[TheDna]

Always thought like this, couldnt even imagine there is one pokerbot > micro limits that is a winner!

There is no bot >nl10 that is a winner imo. Not so sure about limit poker but i dont think that there is a bot that can win vs thinking players.

[Sciolist]

[ QUOTE ]
Which are the top three sites?

Full Tilt, P Startrs and Party P?

Where are they located?

I can't speak for any particular sites and it's true that employers do ask for some ****ing stupid qualifications, but the OP has a good working ability with English provided he's not involved with face to face customer support

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I know of the industry and in this thread so far, OP didn't work for any of those three. I like the suggestion that it was Pacific though, there's anecdotal evidence that would fit.

[stoxtrader]

I agree pacific - I have met with mgmt and they definitely had the stance that winning players were not welcome. Taking away the pacific equivalent of FPPs for ppl who cashout frequently being the biggest example.

Somewhat smart in a narrow-minded, draconian sort of profit hungry way. Potentially a long-term killer and marketing disaster.