**Official uNL Microbrew thread: July(LC/NC)** - Page 137

Gelford · #**1361** 07-10-2007, 01:22 PM

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I'm curious what your read was here... just seems -EV. You have to figure his 4b calling range is something like TT+, AK, in which case only 2 hands out of that didn't hit. Just seems -EV to me (I guess you could argue that he might fold AA here since he puts you on QQ, KK, but I doubt that).

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It is a random act of retardo, something I like to do myself once in a while, you can flop a draw or similar and play it aggro or you can just decide to c/r push turn or something similar on flop and if villain does not have a premium pp, you will win it.

Worst things worst is that you will look like a retard after villian stacks you, but then you will have made Shania happy.

The point being that it should not be a standard line, but against non-fish I do wierd [censored] like this once in a while.

bozzer · #**1362** 07-10-2007, 01:24 PM

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Guys, a range consists of good solid hands and an air segment, where you have things like 44 and 87s or if you so choose 43s and Q3o

The reason you add junk and semi-trash to your ranges is to mask your good hands (Theory of Poker, bluffing frequencies) and thus increase the payoff on those.

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This isn't quite true. When your hand has a chance to improve you want to be playing your top x% of hands in terms of total equity (including implied odds etc). This is why to 'balance' our play hand range utg we do not choose Q3o or 72o, we choose pocket pairs, off suit broadway or suited connectors which are middling in terms of equity.

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All the hands in your pf ranges are NOT supposed to be profitable, you aim is to maximize your OVERALL winrate (or hourly, if you are a massive multitabler).

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also apparently not true according to MOP (p207), but I might have miss-read it.

Gelford · #**1363** 07-10-2007, 01:28 PM

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All the hands in your pf ranges are NOT supposed to be profitable, you aim is to maximize your OVERALL winrate (or hourly, if you are a massive multitabler).

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The second part of the sentence is certainly true, but I think it's not obvious that the first part is supposed to be true. That is, it's not clear that your maximized win rate will come from playing hands which can't be played profitably. Certainly you want to mix it up, but the question is can you derive the benefits from mixing up by playing hands that you can still profit from?

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Two observations

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There was a discussion in HSNL, where a lot posters bordered on panic when they about a year ago discovered that they where losing money playing SCs, until someone pointed out that the SCs where increasing their winrate. (I'm not sure where the original discussion was, but aejones has a reference to it in his well)

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Stox does this thing, where he datamines three succesfull players databases (3x300000 samples) .. and suggest playing all the hands that are profitable.

This approach was severely critisized by several of the best posters (Gehrig etc), who advocated wider ranges in order to increase payoff on big hands. (This is minbet, not NL but the principle stands)

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ssdex · #**1364** 07-10-2007, 01:28 PM

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($67.85)
Button ($142.35)
SB ($44.70)
BB ($47.75)
UTG ($96.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, Button raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero raises to $18, Button calls $11.

Flop: ($36.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $33, Button folds.

Final Pot: $69.75

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins $69.75. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious what your read was here... just seems -EV. You have to figure his 4b calling range is something like TT+, AK, in which case only 2 hands out of that didn't hit. Just seems -EV to me (I guess you could argue that he might fold AA here since he puts you on QQ, KK, but I doubt that).

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Well basic scenario........... Villain is 53/47 over 275 hands if that helps, he's 3bet me probably 15 times, ive folded probably 10, and called 5 to this point....

i've not 4bet once, so I am repping all the hands you seem to be worried about

villain is a huge monkey, but somewhat of a thinking monkey and he is not a call station post flop.... but is really loose preflop, but he wont felt anything less than AK, but maybe not even that if he puts me on AA..... my guess is something like AQ, 99/1010/JJ maybe even worse

HBomb · #**1365** 07-10-2007, 01:28 PM

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good luck playing 43s profitably OOP in a three bet pot

also, I'm logging out of 2+2 and quitting poker b/c I don't raise 43s UTG

BYE

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lol, Jonny don't you play for a living I thought?

ssdex · #**1366** 07-10-2007, 01:30 PM

q3 o/s, does this work? lol, i might be willing to try it out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

OneBigRed · #**1367** 07-10-2007, 01:30 PM

Standard? (cant push on flop)

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $51.80
UTG+1: $20.75
CO: $20.65
Button: $47.70
Hero: $49.50
BB: $72.60

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises to $3, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($15, 5 players)
Hero bets $9, BB calls, UTG+1 raises all-in $17.75, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($68.25, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $68.25)
Hero is all-in $28.75.

Chomp · #**1368** 07-10-2007, 01:31 PM

ssdex, I literally have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. These are genuine questions, and are not in any way meant to be confrontational.

1. You keep saying that we raise 88 to steal blinds or build pot for when we hit a set. But doesn't this totally discount the times we win the pot some way other than with a set?

2. I think saying "raising total junk UTG is part of a balanced overall strategy" makes total sense. But what's with the 43s fixation? I mean, really aren't you just saying "raise your worst SCs sometimes UTG". Well, ok. But that's kinda standard, and 43s is no more or less of a hand to to this with. Do you include 56s in this UTG strategy? If so, well, so do I, and I am a total anal nit.

3. Here are 2 related quotes of yours on this:

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I'll give you pairs under 8's utg and ill take 43s and I will never fold to a 3bet and I bet I will end up making more $ then all the times you just raise/fold when u get 3bet with under 8's, b/c you wont 4bet them, and if you do thats just bad,

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you cant call c/f if you dont have a set you lose a ton of $, you steal with 43s just as often as you steal with a pair or any hand utg

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Why can't you do the exact same with 77 as 43? Is there something about 43 that allows you to bluff with it postflop, but something about 77 that doesn't? And you seem to be suggesting that you can 4b 43, but not 77?

Basically, you seem to be saying "77 = call/fold without set", but that "43 = boundless possibilites to catch 2p or bluff-steal or 4b pre". That seems kinda ludicrous.

4. In hand 2, you say "I knew i could pot and get a fold 95% from particular villain". 95%? Surely in any 4bet pot on a KQx flop 95% is wildly optimistic against any reasonable range?

5. Also, where does this PS fit in:

77: 80.577%
34s: 19.423%

Genuine question...I have no idea where this fits (or doesn't fit) in your argument.

NL Newbie · #**1369** 07-10-2007, 01:32 PM

w t f

ssdex · #**1370** 07-10-2007, 01:33 PM

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Guys, a range consists of good solid hands and an air segment, where you have things like 44 and 87s or if you so choose 43s and Q3o

The reason you add junk and semi-trash to your ranges is to mask your good hands (Theory of Poker, bluffing frequencies) and thus increase the payoff on those.

All the hands in your pf ranges are NOT supposed to be profitable, you aim is to maximize your OVERALL winrate (or hourly, if you are a massive multitabler).

That being said, 43s is not in my UTG range, but I don't mind it being there. On a different note, insisting that it is profitable might be a stretch, but critizing it for being unplayable due to being unprofitable is also a stretch.

And finally if you suck postflop, playing with wide ranges is a spew, but that is a different subject alltogther.

/end Gelfordness.

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this is a really wise post, still wish you would let me stake you!

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