STTF SNG->cash thread

[ChrisV]

I'd want to see the guy play - is he making those kind of flop raises often? Context is really important here. I know his aggro is 5 but that doesn't really help - it's only over 200 hands, and my flop aggro is 6, but that's mostly c-betting, not raising a third of my stack vs a pf raiser on Axx.

I think it's really close, but I would tend to fold if I hadn't seen the guy play at all, but might regret it after watching him play a few more hands. From the VPIP and PFR numbers, my guess would be that this is one of those guys who makes a lot of small bets and raises - hence the AFs - but doesn't make these quadruple-your-bet raises a lot (I think that's more the domain of guys with high PFRs).

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero runs at 20/16. Villain is 66/2 and aggression street by street is 5/12/3 over some 200 datamined hands.

Seat 1: Hero ( $97.40 )
Seat 3: Player ( $144.90 )
Seat 5: Small Villain ( $170.12 )
Seat 6: Big Villain ( $89.42 )
Seat 8: Player ( $109.55 )
Seat 10: Player ( $141.30 )
Player posts Small Blind $0.50
Player posts Big Blind $1

Dealing cards J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises $3.50
Player folds
Small Villain calls $3.50
Big Villain calls $3.50
Player folds
Player folds

Dealing Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets $9
Small Villain folds
Big Villain raises $36
Hero raises $84.90
Big villain goes All-in $49.92

[/ QUOTE ]

Karp - have you seen villain show down small Aces in contested pots? Clearly based on his preflop stats bigger Aces, sets, and flush draws are all in his range (along with just about any 2 cards) and he's going to play them all fast.

Unless I'm sure he's willing to play a smaller Ace this strong I'm probably folding to the flop raise but not really feeling good about it.

Tough spot IMO and I'm struggling with spots like this.

Warning: I've been stacked a few times recently holding TPTK against opponents I'm sure had weaker Aces in their "get it all-in" range so I might be paranoid. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first hand of the session

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($6.75)
SB ($18.20)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($24.30)
MP ($24.70)
CO ($24.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.10) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $0.25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, UTG calls $1.75, MP folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($4.85) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.5</font>, UTG calls $3.50.

River: ($11.85) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $18.8 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $14.05

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i play this about the same with the exception of a smaller blocking bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

going back over this hand I'm starting to think I made a pretty bad fold. I really don't see any two pair hands that would limp UTG. 89 is a possibility and I beat that. Otherwise I think he either has a set (33, 88, 99, not 44 since he folds the flop) or AA-KK.

In order to call I need ~24% equity here.

If his range is half of his AA-KK hands, 33, 88, 99, 98s I've got 53% equity (oops).

If his range is 1/4 of the AA/KK hands, 33, 88, 99 and one 98s combo I've got 36% equity. (oops)

[BHokie1]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($17.30)
Button ($12.40)
SB ($15.60)
BB ($44.45)
UTG ($27.05)
UTG+1 ($5.65)
MP1 ($7.20)
Hero ($23.95)
MP3 ($36.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls $0.90, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($2.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.25</font>, SB calls $1.25.

Turn: ($4.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, SB calls $3.

River: ($10.75) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $10.35 (All-In)</font>, Hero was ready to check behind, and wonder's what he beats from a solid player.

[K䲰䮥n]

I'd insta-call and I'd never check behind. You beat so many MED PPs and lower Ks.

Solid player you say? He's short.

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd insta-call and I'd never check behind. You beat so many MED PPs and lower Ks.

Solid player you say? He's short.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Eagles]

GAWD all this talk about folding AK pf and 3betting and 4betting and w/e is so dumb and basically everyone is wrong so I'm going to make a long post that I hope is beneficial to everyone.(Note: at the lower stakes game where 3betting light isn't as common it isn't as important but than again its important that you start 3betting light so I'll get into that).
Especially at 3/6+ most decent players are capable of 3betting light.
In tough games you need to 3bet light for a bunch of reasons.
1. You get paid off with your big pairs/AK
2. You gain a lot of immediate ev because typically people (without history) will only call 3bets with 20-30% of their opening range so you take down the pot uncontested all the time.
3. Even if you get called you can win the pot a ton postflop either by making the best hand or bluffing.
So what kind of villains are best to 3bet light?
Well you don't want to 3bet nits light because they have a good hand a lot of the time and aren't folding.
You don't want to 3bet fish light because they're fish and don't fold pf.
You can 3bet EP raisers light but be wary about it becuase they have a much tighter range from EP so you won't get folds nearly as often.
Obviously when you 3bet you would rather 3bet in position than out of position but you can still 3bet people OOP pretty wide if you want especially if the button/cutoff opens and you are in the blinds.
What hands should you 3bet with?
Obviously big pairs an AK. I don't like 3betting small pairs because there is a ton of value in calling with them.
So on top of big pairs and AK you should be 3betting good semibluffing hands like suited connectors suited gappers, Axs etc... stuff like AJo normally is a pretty bad hand to 3bet because villain's range does very well against your hand (AK/AQ+ JJ+) and you can end up making the second best hand often pf.

Now lets assume your opponents know everythign I said above. So they start 3betting your opens wide how do you counteract that.
1. In position with good hands you can call. By good I don't mean AK+ JJ+ but also suited connectors stuff like 77-TT however I would only call sutff like this if I feel confident i am getting 3bet wide/squeezed otherwise its a spew and you should just fold pf.
2. OOP you can call sometimes if your 150bbs deep + but personally i almost never call 3bets OOP for teh most part i 4bet or fold. Now contrary to popular belief you can 4bet 100bbs deep and fold to a shove. You just need to make small 4bets so if you make it 3.5bbs villain makes it 12bbs you can make it 30bbs and fold to a shove. Now with strong hands if you 4bet you need to ccall a shove but with these stacks you can 4bet a hand like JTo and comfortably fold to a shove.
Once again we gain the immediate value of picking up the pot often and also when we have big hands we get people to stack off pf with weak hands that they normally never would. Here are a few examples of hands i played in the last few days.

Party Poker, $0.01/$0.01 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $962
Hero (BB): $1,185
UTG: $185
BTN: $655.50

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
2 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $30.01</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $101.01</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $342.01</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1,074.01 and is All-In</font>, SB calls $585 and is All-In

Flop: ($1,924) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($1,924) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($1,924) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $1,924 Pot ($225 Rake)
SB showed T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Jacks) and LOST (-$962 NET)
Hero showed A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Aces) and WON $1,699 (+$960 NET)
Here villain played his hand badly and 4bet too big so he was priced in to call.

Party Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $1,165.80
BB: $683.35
UTG: $1,735.70
CO: $618.45
Hero (BTN): $600

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $158</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $614.35 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $420 and is All-In

Flop: ($1,203) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($1,203) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($1,203) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $1,203 Pot ($2 Rake)
BB showed 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a pair of Sixes) and LOST (-$516.65 NET)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Jacks) and WON $1,201 (+$601 NET)
4bet light profit

Party Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $1,226
SB: $994.75
BB: $907.26
UTG: $543.75
MP: $45.50
CO: $637.50

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $70</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $158</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $843.26 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $727.26

Flop: ($1,817.52) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($1,817.52) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($1,817.52) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $1,817.52 Pot ($3.50 Rake)
Hero showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a full house, Queens full of Nines) and WON $1,814.02 (+$906.76 NET)
BB mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a straight Eight to Queen) and LOST (-$907.26 NET)
4bet light profit

Party Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $1,359.08
UTG: $709.20
MP: $132
CO: $612.85
Hero (BTN): $819
SB: $603

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $80</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $158</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $526 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $423

Flop: ($1,212) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($1,212) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($1,212) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $1,212 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Jacks) and WON $1,209 (+$606 NET)
SB mucked J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (high card King) and LOST (-$603 NET)
4bet light profit

Keep in mind none of these hands are vs fish they are basically all vs good regs and given our history they're shoves aren't thaat bad. BTW I obv didn't include hands where i 4bet they shove i fold or I 4bet and they fold but you get the idea I hope.
Any questions/comments go ahead.

Also RVG I've expalined this before but i think 3betting frequency is far more important than 3betting range. I probably 3bet close to 1/3 of hands some of the time but I don't do it everytime I get them so that's important to remember.

[BHokie1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd insta-call and I'd never check behind. You beat so many MED PPs and lower Ks.

Solid player you say? He's short.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I did insta call this guy he wasn't solid, my question is how often am I ahead of a solid player.

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd insta-call and I'd never check behind. You beat so many MED PPs and lower Ks.

Solid player you say? He's short.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I did insta call this guy he wasn't solid, my question is how often am I ahead of a solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You won't see a solid player take a line like this very often. They will rr AK here and raise the flop or turn with a set. A solid player isn't going to have A4 or A3 here and they definitely wouldn't push the river like this.

[DevinLake]

I do this very often against people that make small 4-bets against me in position (obv I have to have been 3-betting them previously).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

BB ($401.30)
UTG ($398)
MP ($272.80)
CO ($394)
Button ($1298.40)
Hero ($437)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $50</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $130</font>, Hero calls $387 (All-In), CO folds.

Final Pot: $571