X-Post: Man arrested for not showing officer his License - Page 13

TomVeil · #**121** 09-08-2007, 07:33 PM

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All, if there is a sign in CC that says "We will check all receipts before you leave. If you attempt to non-comply with this rule, we reserve the right to forcibly detain you. If you purchase items at CC, you agree to these terms" in a prominent place, what are people's opinions then? Does anyone know if such a sign means that they DO have the right to detain you (from a legal POV)?

As is (assuming those type signs arent there) CC is really in the wrong (and obv the cop) and deserves whatever they lose. And, if they didnt put up those signs, yet had this policy, they are idiots.

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They absolutely do not have the right to detain you. Just because something is posted does not mean that it's legal. Putting up a sign saying "We will kick you in the nuts before you leave", it doesn't mean that they can actually do it. PERHAPS if there was some sort of membership agreement that you had to sign before you could enter the store, they would have a case. (Although I wouldn't imagine that an agreement like that would stand up in court. It would basically have to say "we can search you at any time for any reason and keep you until we're done")

CallMeIshmael · #**122** 09-08-2007, 07:57 PM

Are you a lawyer? or otherwise saying something you know to be fact, and not just your belief? (not trying to be snoody, just wondering)

so, are you saying we cant contractually relinquish civil rights?

iron81 · #**123** 09-08-2007, 07:59 PM

I'm pretty sure it is illegal to sign a contract giving anyone permission to physically detain you. Which means, any contract you signed like that would be unenforceable. If you could sign contracts like that, indentured servitude would still be legal. If you signed a contract giving the store permission to search your bag and you reneged, the store's remedy would be to cancel the contract and show you the door.

TomVeil · #**124** 09-08-2007, 08:12 PM

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Are you a lawyer? or otherwise saying something you know to be fact, and not just your belief? (not trying to be snoody, just wondering)so, are you saying we cant contractually relinquish civil rights?

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I'm not a lawyer, but I am a buisness owner. Many many times I've wished that I could hold people here until the cops showed up, but unless they voluntarily stay (or I can fool them into staying) , there's nothing that I can do.

Your second question I don't have a for-sure answer on, but I believe that contracts that would reliquish your civil rights are illegal and won't be held up in court.

RedBean · #**125** 09-08-2007, 08:15 PM

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so what happened? hard to believe you would get prosecuted, but I've seen way worse things.

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Oh, I wasn't prosecuted. The guy pressed charges 3 days after the event. Considering he was tackling a 14-year old girl (albeit a thief) in a public place, in plain clothes, and without identifying himself to anyone.....the DA chose not to pursue the case.

RedBean · #**126** 09-08-2007, 08:25 PM

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You sure about that? From my understanding, anyone can forcibly detain someone who they reasonably believe is in the act of committing a crime.

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In most jurisdictions, a citizen's arrest can only be performed as a result of the witnessing of the commission of a felony, and NOT on the "probable suspicion" of a misdemeanor.

Also, no civil or criminal protections are afford to regular citizens enacting a citizen's arrest.

In other words, if someone is detaining another person, they are taking their chances that they are themselves breaking the law unless they can later show they witnessed the commission of a felony.

No matter what notice the store gives upon entering, they cannot re-write applicable law in regards to other people's rights.

RedBean · #**127** 09-08-2007, 08:33 PM

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Does anyone know if such a sign means that they DO have the right to detain you (from a legal POV)?

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Absolutely not. A store cannot just put up a sign saying "US or State jurisdiction ends at our front door, and the law no longer applies within our store." and then to conduct business as such.

Granted, they CAN put up the sign.....but they cannot be free from legal ramifications for attempting to enforce their own rules outside the scope of the jurisdiction they reside.

CallMeIshmael · #**128** 09-08-2007, 09:20 PM

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I'm pretty sure it is illegal to sign a contract giving anyone permission to physically detain you. Which means, any contract you signed like that would be unenforceable. If you could sign contracts like that, indentured servitude would still be legal. If you signed a contract giving the store permission to search your bag and you reneged, the store's remedy would be to cancel the contract and show you the door.

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ahhh, ok, that (assuming this is right) settles it

bobman0330 · #**129** 09-08-2007, 09:23 PM

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All,

if there is a sign in CC that says "We will check all receipts before you leave. If you attempt to non-comply with this rule, we reserve the right to forcibly detain you. If you purchase items at CC, you agree to these terms" in a prominent place, what are people's opinions then? Does anyone know if such a sign means that they DO have the right to detain you (from a legal POV)?

As is (assuming those type signs arent there) CC is really in the wrong (and obv the cop) and deserves whatever they lose. And, if they didnt put up those signs, yet had this policy, they are idiots.

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Here's the deal. If CC uses force to stop you from leaving, they'll be committing battery and/or false arrest. There are two relevant defenses. First, you could consent to whatever they're doing. Now, you could argue that your entry was consent, but that's a little questionable. Who's to say you even read the sign? But more importantly, if they have to use force to stop you, it's pretty clear that you revoked your consent. So that's no good.

Their other defense is defense of property or shopkeeper's privilege, which requires that they have some level of certainty (not sure what of the top of my head it is) that you're stealing something. I guess if you're reneging on an agreement you made when entering the store, it's more suspicious than if they tried to stop you with no agreement, but I dunno if it's enough to, by itself, be a sufficient amount of evidence.

Phil153 · #**130** 09-08-2007, 09:28 PM

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In most jurisdictions, a citizen's arrest can only be performed as a result of the witnessing of the commission of a felony, and NOT on the "probable suspicion" of a misdemeanor.

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Obviously in this case, it's ridiculous that not showing the receipt would give grounds for detainment.

But I think you're overstating the general case here. Security guards regularly detain people caught shoplifting, using force if necessary (one of them tackled a child in the story above). Are you saying they're unable to do this in jurisdictions where shoplifting is just a misdemeanor? Are you saying that if I blatantly walk out of a shop with a CD, the security guards have no power to detain me?