Ankiel HGH

[metsandfinsfan]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGTRK3TT71.DTL

[RedBean]

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This is interesting, do you have a citation where I can get more info on this?

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Let's look at this critical 10 day period that occured last year.....that many people are not aware even happened.

July 11, 2006 it was reported that MLB officials expected Bonds to be indicted on perjury and tax evasion charges as early as one week from that day. Source


July 20, 2006 The grand jury retired <u>without</u> issuing an indictment. Source


July 22, 2006 It was reported in the Boston Herald that federal prosecutors had obtained Barry Bonds’ medical files as part of their investigation into whether he perjured himself when he said he never knowingly used steroids.

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U.S. Attorney Kevin Ryan had said he had postponed his decision on whether to seek an indictment of Bonds "in light of some recent developments", and the receipt of the medical records was apparently one of those developments.

The records were believed to include information about three operations Bonds had last season to treat his right knee, as well as a serious elbow injury that required surgery in 1999.
(Source: Boston Herald, article no longer available online.)


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Funny how that works....you can get wall-to-wall free villification of Bonds on any sports media network....but if you want to read the rarely seen blurb about the GJ being dismissed "in light of recent developments" , you have to pay the Boston Herald a fee to read it in their archives.

And this new third sitting of the grand jury is nothing more than a ruse to allow them to imprison Greg for contempt in hopes they crack him.....as evidenced by the failure of anyone reportedly being called to testify before them. No one is coming in or out of the courtroom to testify...but Greg is jailed for contempt for the duration of their session.

Thanks to the medical evidence, it appears the only chance to show any evidence of Bonds steroid use is if Greg Anderson cracks and testifies to that in court.

Not happening, folks.



Random trivia:
-US Attorney Kevin Ryan, mentioned in the article above, was fired in January 2007.
-Barry Bonds, also mentioned above, continues to be employed in left field for the San Francison Giants.

[RedBean]

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http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGTRK3TT71.DTL

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Yikes, it's uncanny at how the two authors of GoS spun the exact same story as presented in the Boston Herald, except in an entirely different light.

Damage control much?

They surely don't want anyone to catch on that possible exculpatory medical evidence shutting down a grand jury investigation could make the unfounded assertions in their biased book look real bad. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[RedBean]

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I care about PEDs, I don't care at all about angry black men breaking records.


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So you must have a major problem with the NFL, right?

And as for baseball, I suppose you have a grudge against the guys who failed tests, and not so much against the guys who didn't?

Amirite?

Since you really care, you could probably name at least 8 of the MLB players suspended for steroid use without looking it up, right? (honor system!)

And Bonds smacking #756 didn't drive you to seething hatred?

Cool.

I'm with you bro, let's save the children together....one failed drug test at a time.

First things first, we need to get the focus on the guys actually using PED's, instead of all the attention on one single guy who never failed a test.

Right?

Show me you really care here, let's save the children and boycott the NFL altogether.

And that Roger Clemens fella too, big ol'steroid user.

[RedBean]

Back to the topic of Ankiel, does it bother anyone that this raid on Signature Pharmacy occured in February, with two SI reporters riding shotgun with the authorities, and the release of Ankiel's name is suddenly released 7 months later, on the day he hits 2 HR's and begins to grow his legend?

More names are being withheld....presumably until those athletes have big days or key milestones approach?

[vhawk01]

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I know your official position is to abstain from judging, and thats all well and good, but no judgment is required here, its simply gambling. You think I'd be taking the worst of it?

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Depends....

Would we define the time period as since the substances were banned from MLB?

Or when they were banned by the FDA/US Govt?

Or like "ever" as in the history of recorded time?

It also depends on the definition of "steroid" and "HGH".

Would we use a broad, "public opinion" definition that can be up for debate?

Or defined as those varying substances explicitly listed by their scientific nomenclature in the MLB CBA, but excluding any substances that are not currently in violation of the MLB CBA?

Little known fact: Legally prescribed HGH/Steroids are not in violation of the MLB CBA.

Say you had an elbow injury, and rather than risk tendon or ligament attrition during the healing process, the recommended medical procedure for treatment is a localized medical steroid?

I know tons of people who get these all the time, and I had a similar treatment when I hurt my back a few years ago.

Would that count as "using steroids" for the purpose of ilicit performance gain, or would it be excused as a medical treatment?

Any way or either.....it will forever remain a mystery to those who already have their minds made up, no matter what amount of exculpatory evidence arises...for the simple fact that you cannot indisputably "prove" a negative.

Any evidence that shows the absence of guilt will be rationalized away by those who already have tried, convicted, and executed Bonds before his defense has even stood up at the microphone.

Much like those same folks who villified Bonds are rushing to the other side of the fence to rationalize Ankiel's situation and why they are excusing him and cannot be seen as hypocritical....when the fact of the matter is Ankiel's situation doesn't even require rationalization, despite his admission. He hasn't violated the MLB steroid policy as spelled out in the CBA.

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Ever, and any steroid or HGH-like substance that would currently be banned. You know full well I'm not trying to trap you into saying Bonds is a cheater or anything like that, and there are no grand implications to what I'm saying. I know the difference between steroids and HGH and medical treatments (I'm a med student FWIW) and I obviously could care less about public opinion or the cheating angle. I agree its hard to be explicit and put it in simple terms, but basically I'm saying that I would bet that Bonds has, at some point in his life, taken anabolic steroids or HGH in some form or another, and done so knowingly and willingly. I think this is a bet way in my favor. However, I would likely take this bet with the vast majority of MLB players, not just Bonds.

You obv don't have to answer if you don't want to, or if you feel like it will weaken your position re: the Bonds haters.

[J.R.]

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According to the prosecution's own case, Bonds allegedly had Ting, among other physicians, routinely perform "audits" on his samples to see if they could detect his alleged use of steroids, in anticipation of being able to beat real tests.

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This is interesting, do you have a citation where I can get more info on this?

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[RedBean]

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Ever, and any steroid or HGH-like substance that would currently be banned.


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Good, that rules out trivial steroids like cortisone, cholesterol, etc.....which technically were included in the 1991 MLB memo under some interpretations as it mentioned "steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the the drug does not have a prescription."

It makes no effort to define "steroid", nor even designate between anabolic or otherwise.

And prescription steroids were allowable....

The 2003 CBA mentions 27 by name, including any Schedule III substance without a prescription. It doesn't prohibit HGH, nor does it list THG.

The 2007 CBA doesn't even contain the word "steroid"....lol...it actually defers to a seperate 2005 agreement that prohibits 45 substances in addition, with HGH and THG added, in addition to all Schedule III substances without prescription.

Oddly enough, the MLB Steroid Agreement expires in Dec 2008, 25 days after the expiration of the statue of limitations for possible perjury charges against Bonds.
In that case, I'd take the bet. Subscription steroids are not in violation of the MLB steroid policy.

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I know the difference between steroids and HGH and medical treatments (I'm a med student FWIW)


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Bonds knows the difference between illegal and legal as described by the CBA. (ie.. illegal steroids banned by the CBA vs those allowable by prescription) In addition to how to shelter oneself from liability via medical prescription.
(FWIW, Bonds' degree is in Criminology.)

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I agree its hard to be explicit and put it in simple terms, but basically I'm saying that I would bet that Bonds has, at some point in his life, taken anabolic steroids or HGH in some form or another, and done so knowingly and willingly.


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I would bet against him taking any substance in violation of the MLB steroid policy.

As for prescribed medications, that's between him and his doctor, and isn't subject to prohibition, so no sense in wagering on that, right? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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I think this is a bet way in my favor. However, I would likely take this bet with the vast majority of MLB players, not just Bonds.


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Codeine is a Schedule III drug, and just about every Schedule III drug has medicinal use.....without the stipulation that a prescription precludes it from being a banned substance, I'd take this wager on 90% every living person in the US born after 1930.

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You obv don't have to answer if you don't want to, or if you feel like it will weaken your position re: the Bonds haters.

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It wouldn't weaken my position, as what I think is irrelevant to the fact that Bonds has never violated the MLB steroid policy as written.

To be honest, if I had an opinion either way, I'd let you know. The simple fact is that I just don't know.

On that basis alone, I'd take whatever side of the bet opposite of you, just because I like to gamble.

What I do know is that he has never been charged or convicted of a crime, nor has he ever violated the MLB policy in regards to steroids.

He very well could have swallowed buckets of THG and was savvy enough to get away with despite having the largest spotlight in the world shone on him, or he could be victim of the biggest travesty of mistaken allegations in public opinion.

I really don't know. Nobody knows for sure.

The only thing we know with absolute certainty is that he has never violated the MLB Steroid policy.

Anything after that is speculation based on unsubstantiated and uncorroborated circumstantial evidence.

Just curious though, if you'd make this bet like you said....would you still bet that he has taken them since the implementation of testing in 2003?

And if not, why no loss of mass that is often seen in other cases, supposing he had previously used prior to 2003?

[RedBean]

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According to the prosecution's own case, Bonds allegedly had Ting, among other physicians, routinely perform "audits" on his samples to see if they could detect his alleged use of steroids, in anticipation of being able to beat real tests.

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This is interesting, do you have a citation where I can get more info on this?

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Asked and answered a few posts back.

But just in case you're just now returning from deep space orbit, a few guys wrote a book a few years back called 'Game of Shadows', about a guy who hits a baseball for a living, and you can find all the info you want about this and other unsubstantiated allegations in their book and numerous Chron articles.

Additionally, Bonds testified to the BALCO grand jury that he didn't trust MLB, he didn't trust the team doctors, and at the implementation of the drug policy in 2003, he had test samples run independently for his own information, including both blood and urine samples.

[vhawk01]

I'm a little worried that you seem to be implying that all of these baseball players are using steroids and HGH but that they are getting legitimate prescriptions for the use of these drugs and so are not violating the league's substance abuse policy. I'm fairly certain it is unethical for a doctor to prescribe steroids or HGH for this purpose, even if it isn't illegal (which it may also be). Even prescribing them for a quasi-legit use while knowing that the patient is likely using them for illicit use is very bad. I really hope there aren't scores of doctors out there supporting this.