Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As I said before, sounds like you understood Revelation. Why don't you read the rest of the Bible?

[/ QUOTE ]

mostly because I can't understand it. I listen to www.georgegordon.org he has audio shows that i listen to while playing poker ok really to put me to sleep, but I don't take his word for stuff I look up stuff in the bible that he talks about. most of his stuff is economic btw, only some of it is about the bible.
One thing I found interesting is that it says in the bible to never eat fat, well what do we do, we take the fat that would be wasted and use it for hot dogs and hamburgers, and then we wonder why we have heart disease. The bible has a lot of good stuff like that, health stuff, and economic stuff as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you could understand it. If I can understand it, then you could too. Don't sell yourself short. There's plenty of study guides out there to help. As we've already seen in this thread, not everyone is able to read & comprehend the KJV of the Bible so go with something simpler like the NIV.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure you could understand it. If I can understand it, then you could too. Don't sell yourself short. There's plenty of study guides out there to help. As we've already seen in this thread, not everyone is able to read & comprehend the KJV of the Bible so go with something simpler like the NIV.

[/ QUOTE ]

my understanding is that it is written in a code kind of, I mean not really a real spy vs. spy code, but more like a legal code, where you have to code plead out what every term means to be able to understand what is being said. For example, in your links about hell there was a common term "cast out into darkness" or something like that. well my understanding is that that term is defined somewhere and so to understand a certain verse in the nt that has that term, you may have to go to an ot passage to figure out what that term means.
I mean, it's like trying to figure out the tax code or something, it's really not something that is easy to do.

anyway I have read math,mark,luke,john,rev, but only cause those are short and talk about jesus's life, but I just don't have to time or really the legal training to read the rest of the bible in an understandable way.

for example, when jesus stopped the stoning of the adultress by the crowd, he said you know famously let he who is without sin etc., in that passage it says he wrote something in the sand. george gordon says he is 99% certain he knows what jesus wrote there in the sand, because if you've read the whole bible it's pretty obvious. I mean, you can read the whole bible without understanding it, but then what's the point?

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure you could understand it. If I can understand it, then you could too. Don't sell yourself short. There's plenty of study guides out there to help. As we've already seen in this thread, not everyone is able to read & comprehend the KJV of the Bible so go with something simpler like the NIV.

[/ QUOTE ]

my understanding is that it is written in a code kind of, I mean not really a real spy vs. spy code, but more like a legal code, where you have to code plead out what every term means to be able to understand what is being said. For example, in your links about hell there was a common term "cast out into darkness" or something like that. well my understanding is that that term is defined somewhere and so to understand a certain verse in the nt that has that term, you may have to go to an ot passage to figure out what that term means.
I mean, it's like trying to figure out the tax code or something, it's really not something that is easy to do.

anyway I have read math,mark,luke,john,rev, but only cause those are short and talk about jesus's life, but I just don't have to time or really the legal training to read the rest of the bible in an understandable way.

for example, when jesus stopped the stoning of the adultress by the crowd, he said you know famously let he who is without sin etc., in that passage it says he wrote something in the sand. george gordon says he is 99% certain he knows what jesus wrote there in the sand, because if you've read the whole bible it's pretty obvious. I mean, you can read the whole bible without understanding it, but then what's the point?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is from 1 Cor 1:

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

What does that passage mean to you?

That story is from John I believe. Chapter 8. I don't know exactly what he wrote because the passage doesn't specifically say & I'm not intimately familiar with the story.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, Bunny other than you, nobody's ever posed that question to me. So I've never sat around & thought about it. But I'm pretty sure that isn't a requirement...why? Because (and here's the clincher) man was created in God's image, no? Says so in Genesis. God believes in punishment for those who don't believe & follow him, right? So, how can you think someone must be a 100% pacifist when God will send the unbelievers to hell when they die?? How many times in the Bible is there a recorded event of war??

[/ QUOTE ]
How about when Jesus said:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." This is the New International Version of Luke 6:27-31

Seems clear?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Christianity only requires one thing.......do I need to say what that is once again?????

[/ QUOTE ]
Requires was a bad word, I guess. Perhaps "Does being a christian entail being a pacifist?" would have been better.

It's interesting though that you said you had no doubts about your beliefs a couple of posts up. Then you said you were only pretty sure that christians shouldnt be 100% pacifists. I think it's an important ethical position to sort out (one of many) and this haziness or different interpretations on an important topic is the difficulty that I see we theists have.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
This is from 1 Cor 1:

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

What does that passage mean to you?

That story is from John I believe. Chapter 8. I don't know exactly what he wrote because the passage doesn't specifically say & I'm not intimately familiar with the story.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah the adultress story is not a good example of what I'm talking about, but it's interesting so I'll share it. basically the people were gonna stone her and jesus stopped them, which is kinda incredible cause jesus was a stranger why would they listen to him? but what he probably wrote in the sand was "where is the man?", because remember they were stoning the adultress that had been "caught in the act". but they were only stoning her, not the man. why this is important is that the law against adultery in the ot specifies that *both* the man *and* the woman be stoned to death. so jesus was pointing out that they were not following the law. I mean, if he just walked up and said stop don't do it, they would have all said, hey,it's the law, we're doing it.

anyway, you're example is much better.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&

1 Cor 1:19 is a reference to Isaiah 29:14, and Isaiah 29:14 references Is 44:25; Jer 8:9; 49:7; 1 Cor 1:19,

so you have to go and look up all those to see what it means.

the funny thing is you may have been implying that god doesn't want us to understand, which actually I agree with, although that is not to say it is unintelligable, but you've made the wrong argument for.

it seems to me that what is meant is that people who have a surface understanding won't be able to recognize true wisdom or someting like that.

Isaiah 29
[ QUOTE ]
13Then the Lord said,
"Because (S)this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
14Therefore behold, I will once again deal (T)marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And (U)the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."
15Woe to those who deeply (V)hide their plans from the LORD,
And whose (W)deeds are done in a dark place,
And they say, "(X)Who sees us?" or "Who knows us?"
16You turn things around!
Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,
That (Y)what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me";
Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

[/ QUOTE ]

In any case I think this makes my point, that inorder to read 1 Cor 1, for example, you have to flip to isaiah, and in isaiah, you have to flip around for that, you see what I mean, it's a lot of work, even for just one passage.

I mean in Isaiah 29:22-24
[ QUOTE ]
22Therefore thus says the LORD, who redeemed (AK)Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:
"Jacob (AL)shall not now be ashamed, nor shall his face now turn pale;
23But when he sees his (AM)children, the (AN)work of My hands, in his midst,
They will sanctify My name;
Indeed, they will (AO)sanctify the Holy One of Jacob
And will stand in awe of the God of Israel.
24"Those who (AP)err in mind will (AQ)know the truth,
And those who criticize will (AR)accept instruction.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is kinda the converse passage for those who accept god and his instruction, you gott go reference
# Isaiah 29:22 : Is 41:8; 51:2; 63:16
# Isaiah 29:22 : Is 45:17; 49:23; 50:7; 54:4
# Isaiah 29:23 : Is 49:20-26
# Isaiah 29:23 : Is 26:12; 45:11; Eph 2:10
# Isaiah 29:23 : Is 5:16; 8:13
# Isaiah 29:24 : Is 30:21; Heb 5:2
# Isaiah 29:24 : Is 41:20; 60:16
# Isaiah 29:24 : Is 54:13
and for those references they undoubtably have references too lol.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, Bunny other than you, nobody's ever posed that question to me. So I've never sat around & thought about it. But I'm pretty sure that isn't a requirement...why? Because (and here's the clincher) man was created in God's image, no? Says so in Genesis. God believes in punishment for those who don't believe & follow him, right? So, how can you think someone must be a 100% pacifist when God will send the unbelievers to hell when they die?? How many times in the Bible is there a recorded event of war??

[/ QUOTE ]
How about when Jesus said:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." This is the New International Version of Luke 6:27-31

Seems clear?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Christianity only requires one thing.......do I need to say what that is once again?????

[/ QUOTE ]
Requires was a bad word, I guess. Perhaps "Does being a christian entail being a pacifist?" would have been better.

It's interesting though that you said you had no doubts about your beliefs a couple of posts up. Then you said you were only pretty sure that christians shouldnt be 100% pacifists. I think it's an important ethical position to sort out (one of many) and this haziness or different interpretations on an important topic is the difficulty that I see we theists have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine Bunny. Be a pacifist all you want. And I am sure about MY beliefs. You, I'm not so sure about.

You ask some oddball question & then say "oh, well its really not an issue to me" but then keep posting scripture to support said oddball question while splitting hairs with me over "sure & pretty sure".

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is from 1 Cor 1:

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

What does that passage mean to you?

That story is from John I believe. Chapter 8. I don't know exactly what he wrote because the passage doesn't specifically say & I'm not intimately familiar with the story.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah the adultress story is not a good example of what I'm talking about, but it's interesting so I'll share it. basically the people were gonna stone her and jesus stopped them, which is kinda incredible cause jesus was a stranger why would they listen to him? but what he probably wrote in the sand was "where is the man?", because remember they were stoning the adultress that had been "caught in the act". but they were only stoning her, not the man. why this is important is that the law against adultery in the ot specifies that *both* the man *and* the woman be stoned to death. so jesus was pointing out that they were not following the law. I mean, if he just walked up and said stop don't do it, they would have all said, hey,it's the law, we're doing it.

anyway, you're example is much better.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&

1 Cor 1:19 is a reference to Isaiah 29:14, and Isaiah 29:14 references Is 44:25; Jer 8:9; 49:7; 1 Cor 1:19,

so you have to go and look up all those to see what it means.

the funny thing is you may have been implying that god doesn't want us to understand, which actually I agree with, although that is not to say it is unintelligable, but you've made the wrong argument for.

it seems to me that what is meant is that people who have a surface understanding won't be able to recognize true wisdom or someting like that.

Isaiah 29
[ QUOTE ]
13Then the Lord said,
"Because (S)this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
14Therefore behold, I will once again deal (T)marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And (U)the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."
15Woe to those who deeply (V)hide their plans from the LORD,
And whose (W)deeds are done in a dark place,
And they say, "(X)Who sees us?" or "Who knows us?"
16You turn things around!
Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,
That (Y)what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me";
Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

[/ QUOTE ]

In any case I think this makes my point, that inorder to read 1 Cor 1, for example, you have to flip to isaiah, and in isaiah, you have to flip around for that, you see what I mean, it's a lot of work, even for just one passage.

I mean in Isaiah 29:22-24
[ QUOTE ]
22Therefore thus says the LORD, who redeemed (AK)Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:
"Jacob (AL)shall not now be ashamed, nor shall his face now turn pale;
23But when he sees his (AM)children, the (AN)work of My hands, in his midst,
They will sanctify My name;
Indeed, they will (AO)sanctify the Holy One of Jacob
And will stand in awe of the God of Israel.
24"Those who (AP)err in mind will (AQ)know the truth,
And those who criticize will (AR)accept instruction.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is kinda the converse passage for those who accept god and his instruction, you gott go reference
# Isaiah 29:22 : Is 41:8; 51:2; 63:16
# Isaiah 29:22 : Is 45:17; 49:23; 50:7; 54:4
# Isaiah 29:23 : Is 49:20-26
# Isaiah 29:23 : Is 26:12; 45:11; Eph 2:10
# Isaiah 29:23 : Is 5:16; 8:13
# Isaiah 29:24 : Is 30:21; Heb 5:2
# Isaiah 29:24 : Is 41:20; 60:16
# Isaiah 29:24 : Is 54:13
and for those references they undoubtably have references too lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I read the story & the interpretation makes sense. I agree with you that you have to "flip around sometimes" to find all the answers. I never disagreed with you on that point.

I posted that passage for a reason...a very subtle reason...which I think you missed but I think you understood the meaning of the passage itself.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, Bunny other than you, nobody's ever posed that question to me. So I've never sat around & thought about it. But I'm pretty sure that isn't a requirement...why? Because (and here's the clincher) man was created in God's image, no? Says so in Genesis. God believes in punishment for those who don't believe & follow him, right? So, how can you think someone must be a 100% pacifist when God will send the unbelievers to hell when they die?? How many times in the Bible is there a recorded event of war??

[/ QUOTE ]
How about when Jesus said:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." This is the New International Version of Luke 6:27-31

Seems clear?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Christianity only requires one thing.......do I need to say what that is once again?????

[/ QUOTE ]
Requires was a bad word, I guess. Perhaps "Does being a christian entail being a pacifist?" would have been better.

It's interesting though that you said you had no doubts about your beliefs a couple of posts up. Then you said you were only pretty sure that christians shouldnt be 100% pacifists. I think it's an important ethical position to sort out (one of many) and this haziness or different interpretations on an important topic is the difficulty that I see we theists have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine Bunny. Be a pacifist all you want. And I am sure about MY beliefs. You, I'm not so sure about.

You ask some oddball question & then say "oh, well its really not an issue to me" but then keep posting scripture to support said oddball question while splitting hairs with me over "sure & pretty sure".

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right to doubt my beliefs - I wholeheartedly agree with that doubt. I'm not actually splitting hairs, nor trying to convince you you should be a pacifist. I dont think anyone should pay any attention to my theology or ethical views, they are almost certainly wrong in some way.

Having said that, I dont think it's right to characterise the pacifism question as "oddball". Jesus seems to advocate pacifism quite clearly, it seems perfectly reasonable and justified to query what is entailed by the above quote.

My position in this thread is that we theists have a problem in determining what the bible actually means, something you seemed to disagree with. All I am trying to point out is that certainty is elusive. Faith and certainty have been tied together and I dont see why this is true. I believe things on faith, yet I am not certain I am right. I dont see anything wrong with this, further I think it is a common view amongst believers (just not often acknowledged). I also think it strengthens one's claim to rational theism - refusing to acknowledge the possibility of error (on our interpretative part) is hard to justify in my view.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]

I posted that passage for a reason...a very subtle reason...which I think you missed but I think you understood the meaning of the passage itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is what, if you seperatre yourself from god you cannot recognize true wisdom or something like the passage says?

[Brad1970]

Go back & reread the first line of that passage only. You & alot of other people (and I won't name names) are having trouble understanding some of the Biblical meanings (message is foolishness), so in laymen's terms it's saying that once you are saved (of the cross) that the Word will make sense to you (power of God).

But if you are also correct about what the rest of the passage means.