Poker Hand XML

[Eratosthenes]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys think that amount won/lost by each player should be included in the PokerHandXML or should it be the interpreters responsibility to calculate this itself? Obv all the information is available in the document for the application to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so I understand: The model here is the converter takes a HH in the site's format and converts it to a standard XML representation. A downstream application (or several) takes that XML and does things with it.

If that model is correct then the XML needs to represent the site's HH accurately and quickly and in a format that is useful for downstream applications. Any analysis belongs in the downstream applications.

Based on this, there should be a priciple: What is in the site's HH goes into the XML file; what is not in the site's HH doesn't go into the XML file.

Random comments:

1) The sites' put a textual description of the hand in the HH: "Flush A high." If that is in the HH, it should be in the XML file because it saves the site's evaluation of the hand.

2) Muppet's idea of rounds with cards and actions associated with each round is great. The rounds should be numbered and named. The number is the order in which the rounds are played. The name is what the site calls that round in its HH. This avoids confusion between "Turn" and "Fourth Street".

3) If the model above is correct then representing cards by "Ac" is adequate.

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if I wanted to create an application like this, it certainly wouldn't be free. True we could make it open source (and thus freely available by nature) but that would require a lot of volunteer time from many quality programmers that can work together efficiently, and for what? To create a tool that will make it 10x easier for commercialize applications (ie. PT/HM) could use to make money.

I just don't see this happening.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you don't want commercial products to use it, release it under GPL instead of BSD.

[rvg72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if I wanted to create an application like this, it certainly wouldn't be free.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I missed the memo where we weren't doing anything with the files directly. Are we pretty much preying that Josh adds it to PTv3 and rvg adds it to HM in addition to supporting the actual sites people want hands converted to?

Btw, aren't you already doing it for free with the Lego Converter or do you have some under the table black market data mining service running (read: selling the hands you convert to various players/sites)? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

HM will support and store the new standard - it's a no brainer really. Once the standard is created it will make things so much easier for everyone who develops poker apps / plugins.

rvg

[Shoe Lace]

[ QUOTE ]

2) Muppet's idea of rounds with cards and actions associated with each round is great. The rounds should be numbered and named. The number is the order in which the rounds are played. The name is what the site calls that round in its HH. This avoids confusion between "Turn" and "Fourth Street".

3) If the model above is correct then representing cards by "Ac" is adequate.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost exactly what I did on page 6. AFAIK it would work with holdem, omaha, and stud. It should work with other games too but I can't say for sure because I'm not familiar enough with them.

I got shot down/ignored because some people were in horror that I thought using a "Ac Ah" format was not ideal and I missed an attribute.

[Shoe Lace]

[ QUOTE ]
Once the standard is created it will make things so much easier for everyone who develops poker apps / plugins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. It would be nice to throw together a hand converter that supports every major site in about an hour or 2 instead of a week+.

Hopefully PT jumps on the bandwagon, even before PTv3.

[Tickner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if I wanted to create an application like this, it certainly wouldn't be free.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I missed the memo where we weren't doing anything with the files directly. Are we pretty much preying that Josh adds it to PTv3 and rvg adds it to HM in addition to supporting the actual sites people want hands converted to?

Btw, aren't you already doing it for free with the Lego Converter or do you have some under the table black market data mining service running (read: selling the hands you convert to various players/sites)? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I am doing it for free with the LegoPoker Converter.

And no I do not sell anything I assure you, that would be a horrible thing to do. Why would anyone want to buy hands that people convert anyway? There really isn't any value in them. Most hands converted and posted in public forums anyway.

But none of this has anything to do with the point I was making.

[Tickner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if I wanted to create an application like this, it certainly wouldn't be free. True we could make it open source (and thus freely available by nature) but that would require a lot of volunteer time from many quality programmers that can work together efficiently, and for what? To create a tool that will make it 10x easier for commercialize applications (ie. PT/HM) could use to make money.

I just don't see this happening.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you don't want commercial products to use it, release it under GPL instead of BSD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, good point, but since a lot of applications for sale are NOT open source, who would ever know if they used the free one or made their own? Anyway - this is beyond the scope of this thread so lets just keep focused on the PokerHandXML format.

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if I wanted to create an application like this, it certainly wouldn't be free.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I missed the memo where we weren't doing anything with the files directly. Are we pretty much preying that Josh adds it to PTv3 and rvg adds it to HM in addition to supporting the actual sites people want hands converted to?

Btw, aren't you already doing it for free with the Lego Converter or do you have some under the table black market data mining service running (read: selling the hands you convert to various players/sites)? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

HM will support and store the new standard - it's a no brainer really. Once the standard is created it will make things so much easier for everyone who develops poker apps / plugins.

rvg

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any reason why PT3 wouldn't use the standard either. Just make sure it's compatible with more than just Holdem.

[mikechops]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys think that amount won/lost by each player should be included in the PokerHandXML or should it be the interpreters responsibility to calculate this itself? Obv all the information is available in the document for the application to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two reasons for wanting the won/loss.

1 Validation that the hand has been correctly parsed. This is my major concern.

2. Searching through databases. when I suggested coactenating the holecards for readability and space, the major objection seemed to be that it would make searching through a databse of xml hand histories more difficult. If this is really going to be a concern then I think searches for hands where a player won/lost say $100 are going to be a lot more common than searches for flops with the Ac. I realize you could do either withcoactenated card strings and without a won/loss summary. However, they are both a lot more work.

[rvg72]

Another question to throw out there, should we include optional metadata definitions for things like reads and player stats?

When these xml files start being shared across applications it would be nice to have a standardized way of storing this type of information. Obviously I'm not talking about identifying every stat but more of a framework within the metadata to describe whatever stats / reads you want to include in the hand. That way, you don't have 10 different programmers come up with 10 different ways to append this data to the PokerHand

Or... do we take an approach where we have a MarkedUpPokerHand which includes the PokerHand definition and these other additional items?

rvg