Marty Schottenheimer fired

[DesertCat]

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I think anyone that can sit there and defend the chargers organization for how this was handled and the fact that the firing was "justified" is smoking something.


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Not saying I agree 100% with the Chargers, but let me take a stab at it.

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The handling of this was a joke. Offering a coach a 1 year extension after going 14-2 is ridiculous. The extension was the same as a dismissal and Marty knew it, which is why he turned it down. He would have been a lame-duck coach left in coaching limbo.


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It's not ridiculous, and it's not the same as dismissal (when you get dismissed, rarely do they offer you more money and ask you to continue to work). If you are running the chargers, you have to decide who contributed more to that 14-2 season, Marty or AJ? And of Marty's contributions, were most of them by his staff or by Marty? Lastly, you have to decide whether you think Marty can ever win in the playoffs.

You and I don't know the internal conflicts and actions that took place. But the owner either does or should, and that could heavily weigh into the decision making. The owner might have decided that while he was really concerned about whether Marty was the right coach after this playoff debacle and some of his other issues, he wanted to give him one more chance to prove he could win when it counted.

If the Chargers win next year, the ownership might have been ready to give him a huge deal and send AJ packing. Instead of takign the opportunity to show what he can do, Marty decided to directly disobey orders and allow his junior staff to interview with other teams. Basically marty pissed all over his bosses. I would have fired him for this alone.

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I've worked in the business world more than at least some of you, and while business isn't exactly like football, I will tell you this. The very best managers (read coaches) are the ones who's employees go on to promotions and better jobs due to the knowledge and/or work ethic and/or inspiration that you provide. The fact that so many of his assistants went on to promotions elsewhere is a pretty good indicator that he might have SOME idea what he's doing.


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I agree with your philosophy, but once again, you don't know what happened behind the scenes. You don't know how much AJ helped hiring these guys, and you don't know how many left because they couldn't stand Marty any more.


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The GM waited so long to fire him that now any of the good hires for the position are gone (For instance, an early decision could have put an existing coach, Wade Phillips in the HC Role). This is just horrible horrible horrible business planning no matter how you look at it. Any new head coach will have less time to assemble a team of coaches because most of the coaching hiring/firing has already happened.


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The GM didn't fire him, the owner did. Originally the GM recommended firing Marty, but the owner decided to give him a one year deal, which Marty s*** on. Once again Marty forced the issue by letting remaining assistants go interview and leave (against direct orders), and then trying to bring in his brother as defensive coordinator.

You can criticize the owner for not firing Marty originally as recommended, or not firing the GM and offering Marty a big extension, but you can't criticize him for responding when Marty started willfully disobeying orders. Marty essentially fired himself.

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AJ made some good draft picks...that might have been skill, it might have been luck. I know that he and Marty disagreed over Brees. Time will tell on Rivers, but I'd side with Marty on this one. You DO NOT get rid of a pro-bowl caliber quarterback that is still young for a prospect who looks good on the practice field. There is no way in hell I would have just released him. I would have tried to lock him up and either keep starting him, or trade a sucessful pro quarterback with a long-term deal to a team that needed one. There are so many horrendous quarterbacks in the NFL I can't see getting rid of a very good one that has started that many games.


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Talent is most important here. AJ picked the talent, not Marty. And don't forget that Bree had a serious injury to his throwing shoulder. Everyone was saying that New Orleans was taking a big risk signing him to a big free agency deal. Now just because the risk worked out doesn't mean it was smart. You are being results oriented here. If Bree's had been healthy, it's likely that Rivers is traded and Bree's stays the starter for a long time. But since they had Rivers in their back pocket, they didn't need to take a risk on Brees. And trading Brees wasn't even possible, do you really think the Chargers let Brees go for free if there were some easy draft picks to be had in trading him?

And to be results oriented, they went 14-2 without Brees.

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If I owned that team, AJ would be gone too...he's an idiot who argued publicly with the coach instead of privately in the club-house and his handling of this couldn't have been more amateurish if he was working as the night-shift manager at Piggly-Wiggly.

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Agreed that AJ should keep his mouth shut. But you are forgetting how Marty has been p***ing in the face of his ownership. So if you have two important contributers behaving childishly, which one do you keep?

[djoyce003]

DC you make some good points. I disagree with a couple however.

1) AJ may have helped in the hiring of the assistants, but it was their performance under their boss, Marty, that had everything to do with their promotions...AJ had zero to do with it. Also, all the assistants left for promotions. If your friend brought you in for a job, and because of the excellent job you did, you were being offered numerous promotions from other organizations, while no such offers were coming from within because of the people above you weren't leaving, what kind of boss would make you stick around in a dead-end job? He let his guys go for promotions...nobody left for an equivalent level position in another organization...we didn't see a RB coach leave to go be RB coach somewhere else...they were leaving to be OC's or something better than they had. Letting people interview for steps up the ladder is ridiculously standard and if an organization won't allow that, nobody will be willing to stay there long term. Also, while I don't have insight to what happened behind the scenes...my guess is the rats jumping off the ship had more to do with AJ than Marty.....if I was a coach and saw the HC taking the beating he was after that season from the GM, I'd bolt.

2) Not offering Marty the long-term deal makes him a lame-duck coach. Part of the reason he let his guys leave is that 1) it was for promotions, but 2) he didn't have a long-term deal so he couldn't guarantee his staff that he would take care of them. If I have a job in 1 place making 200k, but it's only guaranteed for 1 year, and I can go somewhere else and make the 200k and it's guaranteed for 5, I'd be stupid not to take it...especially if in addition to the long-term deal, i'm getting a promotion to a better position/title.

3) Brees was traded because AJ picked Rivers and he wanted his guy to play...that's really the only reason. It turns out that it might not be a bad decision, but that's results oriented thinking. My point was how many allegedly great quarterbacks ended up being busts (Carr, Marinovich, Lief etc). Until he plays a season you don't know how it will turn out and they had a known commodity (and a damn good one) in Brees. I think this will ultimately not matter as Rivers appears to be good, but my point was simply that it's very foolish to get rid of a known excellent quarterback. Also, their record was 14-2 but they also have the best RB in the league and one of the best defenses. I wouldn't say that Rivers was the reason they had that record. He played good enough to not cost games, but it wasn't very often where you saw Rivers put the team on his shoulders and march them down the field for a win all by himself. Lets see how he does in the face of some adversity before we start comparing him to Joe Montana.

Marty trying to hire his brother was dumb but at that point I wonder how many people were really willing to seriously interview for the position? Marty was really in a spot like Al Davis with the Raiders where nobody really wants the head coaching job....in this case it's an assistants job, but why would you want to leave any position to go work for a lame duck coach who is almost certainly going to be fired next year? If Marty was catching this much heat for a 14-2 season, what are his realistic chances for getting an extension next year? No matter how good the team is, having an ultimatum like win the superbowl or you're fired is a condition nobody is going to want to work under. The owner and the GM made the mess. The owner should have fired both of them I guess, it's a freaking mess. Hopefully they'll learn from the godawful mess that Jones has made of the cowboys and Davis has made of the Raiders and will mend their ways. If not, they will eventually spiral into a oblivion.

[anatta]

"Brees was traded because AJ picked Rivers and he wanted his guy to play...that's really the only reason. It turns out that it might not be a bad decision, but that's results oriented thinking"

Really...the only reason? The fact that AJ scouted Rivers, saw him practise, knew his mental makeup, and concluded that he could handle the job didn't contribute? You don't think other reasons might include Brees' weak arm, small size, failure to win close games with the Chargers (remember, they didn't make playoffs with Brees at QB in 2005 (too many close losses), yet Rivers takes them to 14-2 in his first year at the helm), crucial turnovers, and injury had anything to do with it?

AJ rose from 7th grade teacher, low level scout, to GM. You think he is risking it all on personal reasons, "he wanted his guy to play". Maybe he can tell the difference between Lief and Rivers a little better than you or me? maybe its not just luck and result oriented thinking, but trusting your reads and pulling the trigger?

"it wasn't very often where you saw Rivers put the team on his shoulders and march them down the field for a win all by himself"

Chargers were a great second half team, like scoring 50 or so 2nd half in comeback vs. Cinny, comeback vs. Pitt, and clinching home field vs. AZ with a busted ankle, Rivers had some great clutch moments. Unlike Brees who NEVER EVER led the Chargers to wins from behind, he would often just fumble or something losing another close game. Sure, LT dominated a lot of second half games, but Rivers had the highest 4th Quarter passer rating in the NFL.

"nobody really wants the head coaching job" Jim Fassil on the radio disagrees, he said the opposite for himself, and every coach out there. His exact words were, "I'll get on a plane right now" if they were interested in him. Then he proceed to campaign for the job. Coaches want to win the prize and they all think that their "system" plus talent will make it happen.



"If not, they will eventually spiral into a oblivion."

Chargers have youthful all world talent, Merriman, Rivers, Phillips, McNeil, Vincent Jackson, Keating, Gates, Castillo, Igor, Hardwick, Cromartie. Pro Bowlers and/or sick athletic freaks with an average age of 23 or so. Hell, even their kid [censored] punter is the best in the league. LT won't forget to run anytime soon, Jamal won't forget how to eat anytime soon, Jammer at 27 is finally learning to play. AJ will reload, they will find a coach, its all good in Charger land.

...and even if I am wrong, that does nothing to change the fact that, as always, CHARGERS RULE RAIDERS SUCK...GOOOOOOOD NIIIIIIIGHT NOOOOOOW!!!!!!!!!

[djoyce003]

LOL, Jim Fassil is ready to interview right now? No kidding, thanks for proving my argument for me.

My point on the Rivers thing, which was apparently wasted on you was that he wanted his guy to play. I kind of figured that he scouted and evaluated him, as that's normally what you do before you draft someone. Do you think a GM scouted and evaluated Marinovich? Schuler? Carr? Lief? Rob Johnson?

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AJ rose from 7th grade teacher, low level scout, to GM. You think he is risking it all on personal reasons, "he wanted his guy to play".

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Of course he is. He used a #1 draft pick on him. Do you know what he'd get in trade for an untested #1 draft pick that wasn't "good enough" to start for the team that drafted him? He had to start him to justify his choice. I agree that it appears to have worked out, but that doesn't change what happened."

Seems like Brees was able to win the big games this year. He did it with arguably WAY less talent than Rivers had around him, and he was able to make it to the championship game. Where was Rivers' talent in the 4th quarter of the game vs the Pats?

Still the Fassil comment was by far the funniest thing in your message...i'm still cleaning coffee off my keyboard that I spit all over it.

[TheNoodleMan]

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He used a #1 draft pick on him. Do you know what he'd get in trade for an untested #1 draft pick that wasn't "good enough" to start for the team that drafted him?"


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I don't think you are in any position to say, particularly in light of the huge deal the Chargers were able to get for Eli Manning in a situation where they had severely reduced leverage.

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Seems like Brees was able to win the big games this year. He did it with arguably WAY less talent than Rivers had around him, and he was able to make it to the championship game. Where was Rivers' talent in the 4th quarter of the game vs the Pats?


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Brees and NO beat a Philly team that wasn't anywhere near as good as the Pats. Laying it on Rivers is absurd.

Where was Brees talent in the 4th quarter against Chicago? See how lame that line is?

[capone0]

According to ESPN, Norv Turner is the guy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2771126

[djoyce003]

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He used a #1 draft pick on him. Do you know what he'd get in trade for an untested #1 draft pick that wasn't "good enough" to start for the team that drafted him?"


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I don't think you are in any position to say, particularly in light of the huge deal the Chargers were able to get for Eli Manning in a situation where they had severely reduced leverage.


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There is a HUGE difference between a first round pick that has sat on the bench for two years, and a first round pick that is in the current draft and you know it.

[TheNoodleMan]

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He used a #1 draft pick on him. Do you know what he'd get in trade for an untested #1 draft pick that wasn't "good enough" to start for the team that drafted him?"


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I don't think you are in any position to say, particularly in light of the huge deal the Chargers were able to get for Eli Manning in a situation where they had severely reduced leverage.


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There is a HUGE difference between a first round pick that has sat on the bench for two years, and a first round pick that is in the current draft and you know it.

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Of course I know it, but the point is that he got more in return than any previous deal for a #1 pick. Compare the trade to the Vick trade of a few years before and its clear that Smith negotiated one hell of a deal.

You have no idea what he would have gotten for Rivers if he decided to move him. Acting like he made a big mistake with the Rivers/Brees decision is somewhere between premature and stupid.

[djoyce003]

You evidently didn't read my post, or misinterpreted the intent. I never said he made a huge mistake. I said it turns out that the decision appears to at least be ok. My point was simply that letting go of a legitimate pro-bowl caliber quarterback to start an untested commodity (untested in the context of no complete seasons under his belt starting, etc) is conceptually a mistake. Look at how rare a truly good starting quarterback is and you will understand my point. It turns out that this decision is ok....but just for a minute lets consider what would have happened IF he had turned out to be either bad, or just average....then everyone would be calling him an idiot for doing exactly what he did. My point was on the concept.

[SuperUberBob]

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According to ESPN, Norv Turner is the guy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2771126

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