200-400 Hand.

[mike l.]

"ignoring David Sklansky's advice from "Poker, Gaming and Life""

yes. that's why i said fold. i learned on oz's books. i figured he would say it's a fold. i wouldnt be surprised if he never responds with an "answer".

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
You are down to calling, calling and calling. While this might sound neglectable, it is a very passive approach that should usually be avoided (selfweighing approach).


[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand your point here. If a passive call down approach is the option with the greatest expected value why should it be avoided?

[Shandrax]

You can hardly manipulate the pot to your advantage by just calling a random number of bets on every street.

[Shandrax]

How about an "all-in approach", it should cost $800 (best case) to get to the showdown after all.

This is what Pokerstove says:
---
903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: Qd 4c 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 16.2791 % 16.28% 00.00% { KdJd }
Hand 2: 76.0797 % 76.08% 00.00% { AdQs }
Hand 3: 07.6412 % 07.64% 00.00% { TdTs }
---
903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: Qd 4c 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 16.6113 % 16.61% 00.00% { KdJd }
Hand 2: 22.7021 % 22.70% 00.00% { AdKs }
Hand 3: 60.6866 % 60.69% 00.00% { TdTs }
----
903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: Qd 4c 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 06.0908 % 06.09% 00.00% { KdJd }
Hand 2: 86.0465 % 86.05% 00.00% { AdAs }
Hand 3: 07.8627 % 07.86% 00.00% { TdTs }
---
903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: Qd 4c 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 06.0908 % 06.09% 00.00% { KdJd }
Hand 2: 86.7110 % 86.71% 00.00% { KhKs }
Hand 3: 07.1982 % 07.20% 00.00% { TdTs }
---
903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: Qd 4c 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 06.0908 % 06.09% 00.00% { KdJd }
Hand 2: 86.4895 % 86.49% 00.00% { KsQs }
Hand 3: 07.4197 % 07.42% 00.00% { TdTs }
---
903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: Qd 4c 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 04.0975 % 04.10% 00.00% { KdJd }
Hand 2: 95.7918 % 95.79% 00.00% { QcQh }
Hand 3: 00.1107 % 00.11% 00.00% { TdTs }
---
903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: Qd 4c 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 18.3832 % 18.38% 00.00% { KdJd }
Hand 2: 74.4186 % 74.42% 00.00% { JcJs }
Hand 3: 07.1982 % 07.20% 00.00% { TdTs }



Alternatively Pokercalculator (where you can enter hand ranges) spits out the following data:

KdJd vs. AA-TT,AK,AQ,KQ vs. AA-TT,AK,AQ,KQ for this board =
10.11%-------44.95%-------------44.95%

Can our hero win at least $8000 for $800? I doubt it...

[Nietzsche]

Ah, I see where you are coming from now. This is a limit hand though [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Shandrax]

Yes, of course it is, but this approach shouldn't be too far off to judge the winning chances. Overall it doesn't matter if you pay $400 twice or $800 once to reach the showdown.

In limit there is an unknown factor of getting caught in the middle of a raising-war, but we can ignore that if the best case scenario (showdown costs only $800) is already bad for us.

Edit: Actally the showdown costs $1000 (which makes it even worse), because I forgot that we still have to call the bet on the flop.

[EZE]

David,

I was wondering why the Gap theory is not put in play here?
2 to the right of the button opens, it means you got you be better than the opener, Id like AK suited or AQ suited or AA KK QQ or JJ for the reraise. The KJ reraise even suited is a little borderline don't cha think. The is str out your book, even at limit still applies unless you know the openers are loose balls and will raise early without any real strength as a pot building exercise.

Do you agree, I'd probably fold afterwards AQ got you beat you cant think your J is good even if you hit it and maybe are dead to set or otherwise.

EZ

[EZE]

I agree if you think folding is bad poker then you didnt obey the gap theory in the first place and that is the bad poker even calling the raise with players with better position on you in the first place. So saying that means you don't really understand what ya talking about.

Z

[EZE]

Shand,

I like the poker calculators and all that jazz to find out the true odds, but serious when you sit at the table and play at a real casino you aint got the time to run all these numbers through your head so only for the internet players that could have this running while playing to get a better feel, I play alot at my home casino foxwoods at eveything between 5-10NL and 20-40 Limit and as low as 4-8 limit and 1-2 and 2-5 and trust me the experience and hands are your best teacher. The math is important but experience is better.

[EZE]

Laugh if you ignore sklanskys advice you might as well shoot yaself in the foot, I dont know how many times playing limit and no limit his advice and teachings have helped me make calls or get away from bad odds and bad or beaten draws. Between him and harrington its about all I subscribe too and a little of Caro for entertainment value. Its has served me well in both arenas ( limit and nolimit)

EZ