2007 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[Degenerasian]

LOL
you are so clueless
I asked you why Ichiro was mediocre, and you come up with NO explanation.
Clearly his 6 All-star births show how mediocre he is

[THAY3R]

All your measurements of how good a player is are completely awful.

[Degenerasian]

OK then how is a good player measured?

[THAY3R]

By their value they bring to their team. Not by the amount of hits they get(doesn't matter how you get on base, it matters how often), or how good they are not striking out(it doesn't matter how you get out, it matters how often). It doesn't matter what the fans think of you(All Star games) or what the writers think of you (Gold Gloves, MVP's), it matters what you actually do for your team.

This is measured by :
(In order of importance)

1) The ability to get on base (Ichiro is good at this, though horribly overrated at it at the same time)

2) The ability to hit for power (Ichiro has none)

3) Defense (Ichiro is great at this)

4) Baserunning/Speed (Ichiro is also very good at this)


Ichiro is an okay hitter who turns into a very good player because of his speed and defense. In fact, almost all of his value as a baseball player is directly tied to his speed, so it's a safe assumption that as he gets older he will lose lots of value.

[Degenerasian]

[ QUOTE ]
By their value they bring to their team. Not by the amount of hits they get(doesn't matter how you get on base, it matters how often), or how good they are not striking out(it doesn't matter how you get out, it matters how often). It doesn't matter what the fans think of you(All Star games) or what the writers think of you (Gold Gloves, MVP's), it matters what you actually do for your team.

This is measured by :
(In order of importance)

1) The ability to get on base (Ichiro is good at this, though horribly overrated at it at the same time)

2) The ability to hit for power (Ichiro has none)

3) Defense (Ichiro is great at this)

4) Baserunning/Speed (Ichiro is also very good at this)


Ichiro is an okay hitter who turns into a very good player because of his speed and defense. In fact, almost all of his value as a baseball player is directly tied to his speed, so it's a safe assumption that as he gets older he will lose lots of value.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1. I think its safe to say that Ichiro does a whole lot for the Mariners

#2. I think you're forgetting how in shape these major leaguers are. Rickey stole 66 at age 40. I know that SB's aren't the only indicator of speed though, just showing a case where age doesn't necessarily mean lost speed. Kenny Lofton can still run, Dave Roberts, etc etc.

#3. Ichiro did have a mediocre year by his standards last year, but I still dont think you can call him an "okay hitter". I hope you don't use one year as your basis for your claims versus Ichiro. I think your views on good hitters are heavily skewed towards power hitters. Middle of the lineup hitters have to do their job of bringing the runners home, and at times, they get intentionally walked or pitched around = higher OBP%. Ichiro's role as a leadoff hitter is to get on base, and while he didn't do as well last year, he does what he can. He doesn't have the luxury of having teams pitch around him. A baseball player's numbers is based on situations and external factors.
I mean, is Garrett Atkins a better player than Jose Reyes? Atkins gets on base more, has a better SLG% and there isn't much of a difference in defense. Doesn't this sound pretty stupid?
In the 5 tools of baseball, there are others who are better in certain categories than others. Everyone has their opinions on what constitutes a good hitter, and whether tool "X" trumps tool "Y" but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they know nothing about baseball.

[TheRover]

"Doesn't this sound pretty stupid?"

yeah, all of it does.

Garrett Atkins plays 3B.

Opinions and facts are different things bro.

[Degenerasian]

I'm just trying to say that for a veteran who has been putting up solid stats in his career, stats from one off-year shouldn't reflect one's final opinion on a player.

There are the 5-tools of baseball
1) Hitting for average
2) Hitting for power
3) Running speed
4) Arm Strength
5) Fielding Ability
Ichiro has 4 of those covered. There are only a few, if any, players who possess all 5. Everyone will have their opinion on which tool is better than which, but Ichiro isn't far off of being a complete baseball player.


Also I know Atkins plays 3B. What was the point of that statement?

[Pudge714]

Degenrasian,
Reyes' Defense>>>>>> Atkin's Defense
Reyes' Baserunning>>>>>> Atkin's Baserunning
Atkins plays in Coors fields.

However the most important factor is scarcity of position. The same offensive production is not expected of a SS than a 3b 1b or OF. So you can't compare there stats. You need to compare there stats to average or replacement level players at the same position.
Think about it this way
Lets say Reyes is .300/.400/.500
The Mets backup SS (who is an average backup) is .200/.300/.400

David Wright is .310/.410/.510
The Mets backup 3b (who is an average backup) is .250/.350/.450

Who is more valuable?
Note those stats are completely made up.

[Degenerasian]

Pudge I can agree with that. Good post.

[THAY3R]

Atkins is much better at hitting than Jose Reyes and if you disagree than you are just retarded, and there is no helping you.


Atkins is also nowhere close to = Jose Reyes in terms of value as a baseball player because Reyes can play SS.