HonestHoldem Terms and Conditions

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


the purpose of the live game is to reveal the true nature of each player

the purpose of the online game is to cover the true nature of each player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray you can't even get that right.

The purpose of the live game is to provide entertainment for the players and to make money for the house that spreads it.

The purpose of the internet game is to provide entertainment for the players and make money for the site that provides it.

If either game wasn't entertaining almost noone would play

If either game wasn't profitable for the game providers it would not exist.

Both games accomplish their objectives both games are similar yet not the same as any 3 year old could tell you.

I've only played live poker once - I don't want to make the internet game into teh live game - I prefer online play because it's much faster.

I just want players who play the games I do to not cheat.

I want the sites that provde the games I play to do more to prevent people cheating - I want to play and beat people.

If "Honest Holdem" is so important to you go and setup HH and see how succesful it is and quit encouraging people to cheat.

Also in all seriousness how many casual players do you think actually read the T&C's of any poker site before they deposit?

[/ QUOTE ]

matrix,

my bad. instead of using the word "purpose", i should have
used the phrase "security goal". we've been talking about
game security here and so i was alrady within that context.

i agree with your stated purpose as well.
profitability drives the shape of the game
for both the live game and the online game.

i also agree that entertainment is a huge factor.

[ QUOTE ]
I just want players who play the games I do to not cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]

i definitely agree with you. i'm a bit more hardcore about
it though; i cannot stand the idea of even a single opponent
being able to access a potentially edge increasing activity
if i too cannot access that same activity; i wont allow it.
if the operator cannot secure some aspect of the game then
i'm going to tell people about the holes in the game and
i'm going to demand that the given hole be incorporated into
the game such that everyone can freely use the hole. i will
not refrain from persecuting the operators and players who
refuse to level the playing field. my opinion of those types
are that their motives are suspect for wanting to retain
holes in the game so that they themselves can use the holes
in secret while kicking and pecking others in public for
even talking about the holes.

[ QUOTE ]
I want to play and beat people.

[/ QUOTE ]

me too. but i want to know that the field is level.
i.e. i cant do things they cant do and they cant do things
i cant do.

[ QUOTE ]
If "Honest Holdem" is so important to you go and setup HH and see how succesful it is and quit encouraging people to cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]

workin' on it.

ray bornert

[5thStreetHog]

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just want players who play the games I do to not cheat.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rays responce:


i definitely agree with you. i'm a bit more hardcore about
it though; i cannot stand the idea of even a single opponent
being able to access a potentially edge.

My response:


If anyone believes this Ray will sell you the bridge he is currently living under as well.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
my opinion of those types are that
their motives are suspect for wanting to retain holes in the game
so that they themselves can use the holes in secret
while kicking and pecking others in public for even talking about the holes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray, not surprisingly, this excerpt from your last post, pretty much describes YOU!

[Botchman]

[ QUOTE ]


how adults understand why you cant have 12 cookies a day.
children do not.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why not???

[Botchman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


how adults understand why you cant have 12 cookies a day.



[/ QUOTE ]
Why not???

[/ QUOTE ]

[Botchman]

[ QUOTE ]
Ray,

There aren't too many reasons why you are not banned from this site, simply because you try to profit from cheating pokerplayers.

I would prefer that you posted only in your Software thread, from now on, as any valuable input, if there ever was any, in the Zoo threads has been exhausted.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah i'm pretty much hearing the same thing over and over come out of his stupid mouth

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't too many reasons why you are not banned from this site, simply because you try to profit from cheating pokerplayers.

[/ QUOTE ]

During ZeeJustin's ordeal, the stated policy was that 2+2 would not attempt to be an extension of a cardroom's rules enforcement division.

Ray appears to be doubly in the clear since (as has been pointed out) developing botting software doesn't violate anything other than your own sensibilities.

I don't like the changes he's talking about, but it's clear to me that he's thought about it more than almost anyone else here, and I (for one) want to hear what he has to say, malformatted and repetitive though it may be.

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There aren't too many reasons why you are not banned from this site, simply because you try to profit from cheating pokerplayers.

[/ QUOTE ]

During ZeeJustin's ordeal, the stated policy was that 2+2 would not attempt to be an extension of a cardroom's rules enforcement division.

Ray appears to be doubly in the clear since (as has been pointed out) developing botting software doesn't violate anything other than your own sensibilities.

I don't like the changes he's talking about, but it's clear to me that he's thought about it more than almost anyone else here, and I (for one) want to hear what he has to say, malformatted and repetitive though it may be.

[/ QUOTE ]Your in luck then Trey,because hes said the exact same thing eight hundred times in ten different posts over the last two weeks.All of the time knowing that the basic premise of his "concept poker room" would destroy his business.But im very happy that at least a few people enjoy hearing his lies and false sincerity over and over and over.I guess that does give his rants some value if only in entertaining the minority.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There aren't too many reasons why you are not banned from this site, simply because you try to profit from cheating pokerplayers.

[/ QUOTE ]

During ZeeJustin's ordeal, the stated policy was that 2+2 would not attempt to be an extension of a cardroom's rules enforcement division.

Ray appears to be doubly in the clear since (as has been pointed out) developing botting software doesn't violate anything other than your own sensibilities.

I don't like the changes he's talking about, but it's clear to me that he's thought about it more than almost anyone else here, and I (for one) want to hear what he has to say, malformatted and repetitive though it may be.

[/ QUOTE ]Your in luck then Trey,because hes said the exact same thing eight hundred times in ten different posts over the last two weeks.All of the time knowing that the basic premise of his "concept poker room" would destroy his business.But im very happy that at least a few people enjoy hearing his lies and false sincerity over and over and over.I guess that does give his rants some value if only in entertaining the minority.

[/ QUOTE ]

[RayBornert]

guys,

i am being forced to post exactly one last time and i'm not
allowed to talk with the zoo any more.

i was disappointed to see that mike locked the remoteholdem
thread because we never got a chance to see what the zoo
thought about it; there were a few nasty replies and at
least one guy that said he'd deposit. i respectfully ask
that mike unlock the thread long enough to ask everyone if
they would deposit and play at a remoteholdem type of site
just so we can collect everyones opinion on that.

my posts were intended to show that remoteholdem is at one
very extreme end of the spectrum of online holdem designs
and honestholdem is at the opposite end. they might not be
the absolute extreme endpoints but they are close.

the current state of online holdem is somewhere between the
two extremes. where exactly is a matter of debate.

the final point i was attempting to illustrate is that the
ostrich farm center of mass is technically where the game
is at any given time and most importantly that the center
of mass is migrating.

three years ago the herd was closer to remoteholdem and
farther from honestholdem than it is now - the observation
here is that back then you still had people very regularly
complaining about tracking as cheating whereas now tracking
seems very much commonplace.

the herd is migrating away from remoteholdem and toward
honest holdem.

the herd is not standing still although it might seem like
it on any given day. if i'm wrong then time will tell.
but dont be surprised if there comes a day when bots seem
as normal as tracking does now; the huge flame wars then
will be about teamers and how to stop them.

if i'm correct and the entire net eventually moves toward
honest holdem then it seems like a good idea to start to
play that game now and learn it welll as opposed to wait
and be one of those behind the curve. keep in mind that
there are many that have a 3 year headstart on the herd.

i've been told on more than a few occasions (by people who
believe i'm correct) that i am moving way too fast for the
comfort zone of the average joe. that's probably true.

but i'm honest about it.

i want to track.
i want to bot.
i want to team.

and i have no problems whatsoever if any of my opponents
are doing those things.

note that all of these comments are stictly within the
context of online holdem. in the live game i expect to
face opponents that are doing none of the above.

ray bornert