How is abortion a states rights issue?

[pvn]

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So since cops are jackasses, I shouldn't drink and drive? I guess if they pull me over for driving in a poor neighborhood thinking I might be buying drugs, you would tell me not to drive there. Or if I go to Vegas and bring $5k cash on me, and its confiscated, I shouldn't have brought that much money to begin with?

Brilliant!

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Well, if they think you're drinking and driving, and you're not, no harm no foul.

If they think you're buying drugs, and your not, no harm no foul.

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First of all, drinking and driving is not the same as driving drunk, despite the propaganda that claims that they are exactly the same.

Second of all, there is harm and foul in arbitrary detainment, even if it is temporary.

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If they confiscate your money, you shouldn't have committed whatever activity you did. Cops don't confiscate peoples money for having too much.

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Sure they do.

http://www.bigeye.com/forfeit.htm

http://www.dui.com/dui-library/legal/asset-forfeiture

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1056139927409

There are lots more. Google is your friend.

[bills217]

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Buy mints? Oh wait. DONT DRINK AND DRIVE.

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Get an abortion? Oh wait. DON'T HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

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That's how it got started - not a very strong analogy anyway but the point is, pregnancy does not happen on accident, and Kurn's assertion that no method of contraception is 100% further backs my point that any intercourse exposes the parties in question to the risk of becoming pregnant, and in 99.9% of cases they are fully aware of it, and as such should bear responsibility for their actions. If their personal freedom is infringed, it is only as a result of their own decisions. A college student's personal freedom is infringed when he runs up 5 figures of credit card debt, but he has only himself to blame and he still has to pay. Maybe that is a better analogy.

[DblBarrelJ]

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So since cops are jackasses, I shouldn't drink and drive? I guess if they pull me over for driving in a poor neighborhood thinking I might be buying drugs, you would tell me not to drive there. Or if I go to Vegas and bring $5k cash on me, and its confiscated, I shouldn't have brought that much money to begin with?

Brilliant!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if they think you're drinking and driving, and you're not, no harm no foul.

If they think you're buying drugs, and your not, no harm no foul.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, drinking and driving is not the same as driving drunk, despite the propaganda that claims that they are exactly the same.

Second of all, there is harm and foul in arbitrary detainment, even if it is temporary.

[ QUOTE ]
If they confiscate your money, you shouldn't have committed whatever activity you did. Cops don't confiscate peoples money for having too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do.

http://www.bigeye.com/forfeit.htm

http://www.dui.com/dui-library/legal/asset-forfeiture

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1056139927409

There are lots more. Google is your friend.

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If you're unaware of difference in legal asset forfeiture and some street cop going "I'll take that.. thank you!" you're beyond any help I can provide on the topic.

[bills217]

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I wont speak for most libertarians but I do not consider abortion to be an initiation of force against anyone. It is a denial of support/resources.

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Do you know what happens in >90% of abortions? The baby gets cut to pieces with a knife. Do you know how the doctor checks to make sure he got it all? He counts 2 arms, 2 legs, and a head. This practice is a little more than "denial of support/resources." It is initiation of force by definition, and a particularly brutal example of it at that. It is a selfish (on the part of all parties involved), barbarian practice that is a stain on our society, and I believe that is how it will be viewed in 200 years (once medical technology has exposed the real motives behind abortion).

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This also makes for a good segueway to tomdemaine's thread on stated vs. actual preferences. The usual excuses for abortion do not add up - lack of finances, no family support structure in place, inability to have a career, etc. If these are the only beefs, then give it up for adoption. Families are lined up around the block and willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to adopt children, especially in the case of healthy, white children. Baby gets to experience life (which I will assume everyone posting here agrees is a good thing by virtue of the fact that you haven't killed yourself yet), everyone wins.

The ACTUAL preference is for the child to be destroyed so the parties involved don't have to live with the fact that there is a living breathing person out there who is biologically their child that they willfully abandoned.

[bills217]

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So since cops are jackasses, I shouldn't drink and drive? I guess if they pull me over for driving in a poor neighborhood thinking I might be buying drugs, you would tell me not to drive there. Or if I go to Vegas and bring $5k cash on me, and its confiscated, I shouldn't have brought that much money to begin with?

Brilliant!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if they think you're drinking and driving, and you're not, no harm no foul.

If they think you're buying drugs, and your not, no harm no foul.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, drinking and driving is not the same as driving drunk, despite the propaganda that claims that they are exactly the same.

Second of all, there is harm and foul in arbitrary detainment, even if it is temporary.

[ QUOTE ]
If they confiscate your money, you shouldn't have committed whatever activity you did. Cops don't confiscate peoples money for having too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do.

http://www.bigeye.com/forfeit.htm

http://www.dui.com/dui-library/legal/asset-forfeiture

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1056139927409

There are lots more. Google is your friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're unaware of difference in legal asset forfeiture and some street cop going "I'll take that.. thank you!" you're beyond any help I can provide on the topic.

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I think he's aware of the legal difference but unaware of the difference in principle.

[adanthar]

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As for initiating force - what do you call cutting fetuses to pieces with knives/poisoning them? If you're fine with this, you have to also be fine with doing it to a 1-year-old

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Eh? No you don't. Either a fetus is a person, or it isn't, but the fact that it's a lifeform is not indicative of personhood. Are you okay with harvesting organs from a brain dead individual on life support?

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Do you know what happens in >90% of abortions? The baby gets cut to pieces with a knife.

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The vast majority of abortions in the US aren't even surgical.

edit: Correcting myself: vacuum procedures, which are the overwhelming choice before the second trimester, are considered surgical in the statistics. No knives are involved anywhere, though, and pre 12'th week abortions are ~90% of the total.

[pvn]

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So since cops are jackasses, I shouldn't drink and drive? I guess if they pull me over for driving in a poor neighborhood thinking I might be buying drugs, you would tell me not to drive there. Or if I go to Vegas and bring $5k cash on me, and its confiscated, I shouldn't have brought that much money to begin with?

Brilliant!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if they think you're drinking and driving, and you're not, no harm no foul.

If they think you're buying drugs, and your not, no harm no foul.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, drinking and driving is not the same as driving drunk, despite the propaganda that claims that they are exactly the same.

Second of all, there is harm and foul in arbitrary detainment, even if it is temporary.

[ QUOTE ]
If they confiscate your money, you shouldn't have committed whatever activity you did. Cops don't confiscate peoples money for having too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do.

http://www.bigeye.com/forfeit.htm

http://www.dui.com/dui-library/legal/asset-forfeiture

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1056139927409

There are lots more. Google is your friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're unaware of difference in legal asset forfeiture and some street cop going "I'll take that.. thank you!" you're beyond any help I can provide on the topic.

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I guess you didn't read the links.

Some street cop going "I'll take that.. thank you" IS legal asset forfeiture.

[bills217]

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Eh? No you don't.

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What is the meaningful distinction between a fetus at 6 months gestation and 1-year-old with regard to the personhood of the fetus/baby? (Hint: Birth is definitely not one.)

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Either a fetus is a person, or it isn't, but the fact that it's a lifeform is not indicative of personhood. Are you okay with harvesting organs from a brain dead individual on life support?


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Addressed earlier in thread and besides that the distinction is obvious.

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The vast majority of abortions in the US aren't even surgical.

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Here you are technically correct. I wasn't including very early-term chemical abortions in that figure, and I should have stated as much with the qualifier ">10 weeks gestation" or some such. You got me. Edit: Well apparently you were referring to something else though so whatever.

You know, you and dvaut ought to try either responding to the crux of ppl's arguments or not posting rather than nit-picking to death (especially when the nitpick turns out to be wrong).

[bills217]

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No knives are involved anywhere, though

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The technical term for it may not be "knife," but it's a knife. In most cases at that stage, the baby has to be cut apart with a sharp instrument performing the same function as a knife before being vacuumed and/or scraped out piece-by-piece.

[AlexM]

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If they confiscate your money, you shouldn't have committed whatever activity you did. Cops don't confiscate peoples money for having too much. You watch too much tv.

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This is completely false. If you're carrying around 10k+, it's pretty much guaranteed to get confiscated regardless of why you have it.