How should a society deal with drugs? - Page 12

vhawk01 · #**111** 09-18-2007, 12:14 PM

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Yes. That's mostly why I'm against the lynch mobs. But I'm also against just letting the guy go about his own business. I don't like the false dilemma I feel you give me.

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Exactly. And because you so strongly are against letting him go, you'd be willing to pay a lot to enforce the third option, the one I am in favor of, which is exclusion from participation in society. Its not a false dilemma, there are other choices. I don't like the two you list either. In fact, it is exactly BECAUSE I don't like either of those options that the third option would be so successful.

But this isn't really about WHICH option we choose, its about you claiming it would be impossible to enforce ANY of these options without a coercive state. I'm trying to explain that powerful preferences, such as the one you feel about not letting him go free or unleashing lynch mobs, will be the driving force behind enforcing option three. If it were only a mild preference, I'd agree with you, it is unlikely to succeed in the face of the costs of implementation. But then, if it were a mild preference, its failure wouldn't be that big of a deal.

wtfsvi · #**112** 09-18-2007, 12:24 PM

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Exactly. And because you so strongly are against letting him go, you'd be willing to pay a lot to enforce the third option, the one I am in favor of, which is exclusion from participation in society.

[/ QUOTE ] That's what I mean by letting him go about his own business.

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But this isn't really about WHICH option we choose, its about you claiming it would be impossible to enforce ANY of these options without a coercive state.

[/ QUOTE ] I never claimed that. I could see how a profit organization could take responsibility for stopping criminals, partly based on donations and partly on the labour of the prisoners. You probably wouldn't agree to that, though, since the guy never signed a contract saying he wouldn't sell drugs to children.

vhawk01 · #**113** 09-18-2007, 12:30 PM

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Exactly. And because you so strongly are against letting him go, you'd be willing to pay a lot to enforce the third option, the one I am in favor of, which is exclusion from participation in society.

[/ QUOTE ] That's what I mean by letting him go about his own business.

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But this isn't really about WHICH option we choose, its about you claiming it would be impossible to enforce ANY of these options without a coercive state.

[/ QUOTE ] I never claimed that. I could see how a profit organization could take responsibility for stopping criminals, partly based on donations and partly on the labour of the prisoners. You probably wouldn't agree to that, though, since the guy never signed a contract saying he wouldn't sell drugs to children.

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I just can't imagine why I would care if he "went about his business" if you define that the way you apparently are doing. He is excluded from society, and can no longer harm me or anyone I love. Or anyone who doesn't want to associate with him. This seems ideal. But then, I'm not much for vengeance or retribution. The purpose of punishment, imo, is segregation and deterrance. Both of those goals are met fantastically by expulsion. Keeping him in a little cage or executing him are completely unnecessary.

wtfsvi · #**114** 09-18-2007, 12:38 PM

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I just can't imagine why I would care if he "went about his business" if you define that the way you apparently are doing. He is excluded from society, and can no longer harm me or anyone I love. Or anyone who doesn't want to associate with him.

[/ QUOTE ] If this works and makes him stop hurting people, I'm all for it. I have no desire to do anything beyond what is needed to make that happen.

mosdef · #**115** 09-18-2007, 12:43 PM

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I just can't imagine why I would care if he "went about his business" if you define that the way you apparently are doing. He is excluded from society, and can no longer harm me or anyone I love. Or anyone who doesn't want to associate with him.

[/ QUOTE ] If this works and makes him stop hurting people, I'm all for it. I have no desire to do anything beyond what is needed to make that happen.

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Then you should consider the real possibility that the best way may be for employers, producers, property owners, etc. to demand that he signs a contract saying he won't sell drugs to kids if he wants a job, food, and a place to live.

pvn · #**116** 09-18-2007, 01:29 PM

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edit: and pvn: yes

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So what's step 2? What's the business model here?

wtfsvi · #**117** 09-18-2007, 05:08 PM

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edit: and pvn: yes

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So what's step 2? What's the business model here?

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know. Like in Oliver Twist [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I really don't feel like getting into a discussion about how different business models with 12 year old drug zombies would or would not work.

pvn · #**118** 09-18-2007, 05:38 PM

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edit: and pvn: yes

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So what's step 2? What's the business model here?

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know. Like in Oliver Twist [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I really don't feel like getting into a discussion about how different business models with 12 year old drug zombies would or would not work.

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We'll just take it as a given that such armies will be all over the place, then. OK. Sounds fair.

natedogg · #**119** 09-20-2007, 01:06 PM

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You believe in the persons free will to decide whether he wants to take them (drugs) or not?

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Do you believe alcohol should be prohibited? If not, why not?

natedogg

pokerbobo · #**120** 09-20-2007, 09:36 PM

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I think whether you abuse drugs or not you may easily find yourself addicted to them and that's when your problems start.
Of course some may harm or kill you right away.

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Look at yourself... Are you a drug user? If not, why not? I'm sure it's not because they are illegal. That stops no one. You choose not to use them. Why is it everyone thinks if they become legal, that all non users will all of a sudden run out and buy a bag of crack or heroin?

Ask a drug user about the risks involved... getting busted is low on the list of acknowledged risks.

The drug laws are a complete waste of time, money, and prison space. Save the cells for the rapists, murderers and thieves. They are the creators of victims.