The Not Ready-Catholic Dillemma

[Subfallen]

All those verses are related to absorbing established doctrine or rejecting heresy. I'm still harping on a different problem: justifying doctrine. There is simply no way the extremity of Christian claims can ever be justified through reasoning or insight of any sort.

Of course a lot of modern-day Evangelicals would disagree with that, but IMO by doing so they radically impoverish their message to anyone listening closely.

[NotReady]

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I'm still harping on a different problem: justifying doctrine. There is simply no way the extremity of Christian claims can ever be justified through reasoning or insight of any sort.


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I suppose the only way to address this would be through specifics. If you mean deriving the Incarnation, for instance, through reason alone, then I agree - revelation is required. And human theological statements of doctrine must always be tested by Scripture - interpretation is required.

[Subfallen]

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In order to understand what the Incarnation means the mind must be used. Faith involves accepting what has been understood as true.

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If G_d was among us, and is now with us, the intellectual meaning of that truth is impossibly trivial compared to the experience of it achieved through faith. It seems a sadly watered-down sort of Christianity that presents faith as merely a logical step that follows intellectual assent.

Essentially, this is why I am not a Christian and why I do not think there is any real chance that Christianity is true. Because there are no transformations. There is no Presence; there are only a million dutiful acknowledgments of the Presence when none should be needed.

It would be nice if G_d really was with us tho. :/

[NotReady]

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Because there are no transformations.


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Read Acts.

[Subfallen]

Well, yes, allegedly many things happened...

Needless to say, I have never been witness to any of them...and I know a lot of people who are terribly committed to Christianity.

[Subfallen]

Anyways, interesting thread, and a rather sad thread too thx to bills.

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If anyone had ever made a compelling case to me that there was no God and/or Jesus was not His Son, I would drop Christianity LIKE A BAD HABIT.

Speaking only for me personally, it is either true, or it is an incredible curse.

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[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

G'night.

[NotReady]

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Needless to say, I have never been witness to any of them...and I know a lot of people who are terribly committed to Christianity.


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I think there are two things in Acts more important than the miracles, Pentecost, etc. The first is the complete transformation of Paul. You have witnessed that if you believe he was a persecutor of the church and then became the most influential of the apostles - the spread of Christianity is largely attributable to the working of God through Paul.

The other thing is that spread and the ongoing historical influence that resulted.

As for people you know, C.S. Lewis said it best (again): You judge a toothpaste, not by how white it makes the teeth, but whether the teeth are whiter than they were before.

You can only know someone's transformation if you knew them before. And if you don't know anyone like that I promise you there are many and you can find them.

[Subfallen]

Ok, srsly last post.

I'm actually growing to admire your persistent concern for the unsaved, and even regret insulting you previously [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]...so, thanks. But unfortunately the historical success of Christianity is easily explained by virtue of it's being a very excellent and compelling religion.

Religion has always been something that most people partake in. It's just natural selection that the best religions will keep the most converts.

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You can only know someone's transformation if you knew them before.

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This is a good point, but the psychology of cathartic transformation applies to many things, including other religions, hypnosis, and even grizzly bears. (Yes, this guy was a former alcoholic who attributed his recovery to bears.) I would expect something entirely inimitable from the touch of Almighty God.

None of it in sum is remotely enough to make me optimistic about the existence of a loving personal Deity. Who knows, though, maybe someday I'll come around. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[NotReady]

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and even regret insulting you previously


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No problem, I never notice things like that. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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I would expect something entirely inimitable from the touch of Almighty God.


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This can be hard to find, but it's out there:

34"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

[David Sklansky]

OK fine. I wasn't going to interrupt you two. Now what of that proclamation by the Pope?