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#111
07-13-2007, 02:37 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
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<font color="blue">I think this is where you misunderstand many atheists/agnostics. There aren't monstrous whoppers that I believe instead of God. I believe I don't know a lot of things. I don't know why the universe exists, I don't know how human consciousness arose, I don't know why there are physical laws to the universe. My position, and the position of many atheists and agnostics, is that we don't find God to be a compelling answer to these questions. It's not that there is a better answer, it's that there is no good answer in my mind. </font> This pretty much nails it for me. To the point where I'd happily sign my name to it. [/ QUOTE ] The point is stronger if you use the words "Biblical God". Also I was indeed talking about the probability that Biblical miracles "did" happen rather than "could" happen. 
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#112
07-13-2007, 02:52 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
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[ QUOTE ] NotReady: prove that every miracle is not the illusion of a miracle. [/ QUOTE ] I can't. I can't even prove I'm typing this. Once again, faith is required. [/ QUOTE ] Follow up question, Are you inerrant in determining which improbable scenarios are miracles and which are just pure chance, or is there some margin of error?
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#113
07-13-2007, 03:00 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
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I believe I don't know a lot of things. [/ QUOTE ] Of course, I can't wrangle with you about what's inside your head. I can say that your actions are probably not consistent with the statement you're making. Unless you admit to being irrational. Because you engage in logical discourse, you probably make moral judgments, you may even entertain future hopes, if you're a scientist you investigate the world as if it was there, and many more actions which can only be rational if: If what? But many people's fundamental beliefs are not formulated in a self-conscious way, so again I can't address your situation personally, but I can talk about them by inference. [ QUOTE ] It's not that there is a better answer, it's that there is no good answer in my mind. [/ QUOTE ] If by good answer you mean omniscient, total understanding then I can't help you. But I can make a rational case for God, the Bible and Christianity. That's what I try to do on this forum. If you have understood my arguments and reject them then that forms a part of your belief system, because when you reject a proposition you are expressing unbelief. "I don't know" in certain situations is not a neutral position if you ought to know. I'm not saying you ought to know at this point, but God says all are responsible because He reveals Himself to all. "I don't know" eventually equals "I don't accept". Again, not being personal, just telling you what I think the Bible indicates. God will not leave us alone, He will not allow neutrality - we are being saved or we are being condemned all along the timeline of our lives. There are no spiritual Switzerlands. [ QUOTE ] In my mind, there are better explanations for why most of humanity believes in God/Gods than that they actually exist. [/ QUOTE ] There are many false religions and false gods. That man is a religious being should cause at least some curiosity beyond just chalking it up to evolution. [ QUOTE ] Would you mind explaining what it means to "get far" in Christianity? [/ QUOTE ] I meant that when someone becomes a Christian he enters into discipleship which involves progress in becoming like Christ. That involves learning and practicing. To deny the divinity of Christ is to deny a major doctrine of the Bible and I think it would hinder a Christian in his progress. I've never known a practicing Christian who does deny that Christ is God, though historically that heresy does exist, and is traditionally denounced as heresy. But I was just trying to emphasize the importance of the doctrine, I'm not trying to pronounce judgment on anyone. [ QUOTE ] are you more upset by atheists or liberal Christians who believe Jesus was a great teacher and not God? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not upset by either. I'm concerned to defend the Gospel and to impart whatever knowledge I have that may help anyone seeking the truth.
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#115
07-13-2007, 03:04 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
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Are you inerrant in determining which improbable scenarios are miracles and which are just pure chance, or is there some margin of error? [/ QUOTE ] I don't have much opinion about miracles that are not in the Bible. The Bible is inerrant in that respect.
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#116
07-13-2007, 03:05 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] <font color="blue">I think this is where you misunderstand many atheists/agnostics. There aren't monstrous whoppers that I believe instead of God. I believe I don't know a lot of things. I don't know why the universe exists, I don't know how human consciousness arose, I don't know why there are physical laws to the universe. My position, and the position of many atheists and agnostics, is that we don't find God to be a compelling answer to these questions. It's not that there is a better answer, it's that there is no good answer in my mind. </font> This pretty much nails it for me. To the point where I'd happily sign my name to it. [/ QUOTE ] The point is stronger if you use the words "Biblical God". [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I mean an omnipotent, benevolent, meddling God. A deistic God kind of makes sense to me, but I wouldn't say that there is compelling evidence.
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#117
07-13-2007, 03:07 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
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[ QUOTE ] Also I was indeed talking about the probability that Biblical miracles "did" happen rather than "could" happen. [/ QUOTE ] Aha! [/ QUOTE ] But it is important to keep in mind that if they "didn't" happen, your specific beliefs are incorrect.
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#118
07-13-2007, 03:16 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
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But it is important to keep in mind that if they "didn't" happen, your specific beliefs are incorrect. [/ QUOTE ] Paul beat you to it: 1 Corinthians 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins
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#119
07-13-2007, 03:21 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I believe I don't know a lot of things. [/ QUOTE ] Of course, I can't wrangle with you about what's inside your head. I can say that your actions are probably not consistent with the statement you're making. Unless you admit to being irrational. Because you engage in logical discourse, you probably make moral judgments, you may even entertain future hopes, if you're a scientist you investigate the world as if it was there, and many more actions which can only be rational if: If what? But many people's fundamental beliefs are not formulated in a self-conscious way, so again I can't address your situation personally, but I can talk about them by inference. [/ QUOTE ] There are many questions that I believe I do know the answer to, so I don't see your point. I believe the world exists, I believe that some actions are better in certain situations than others (although I hesitate to call anything right or wrong), and I believe logical discourse can lead to understanding. I don't see how any of these things necessitates a belief in God. Would you mind telling me which of my actions you are talking about that would mean that I have taken a position on God's existence? I don't need to have an answer for ultimate questions in order to function. I don't think that you can really have an answer for many of life's ultimate questions. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It's not that there is a better answer, it's that there is no good answer in my mind. [/ QUOTE ] If by good answer you mean omniscient, total understanding then I can't help you. But I can make a rational case for God, the Bible and Christianity. That's what I try to do on this forum. If you have understood my arguments and reject them then that forms a part of your belief system, because when you reject a proposition you are expressing unbelief. [/ QUOTE ] This is true, I don't believe in the God you are proposing. I don't think your arguments for the Bible and Christianity are compelling. This does not mean, however, that I believe I know the answer to questions that believing in God would take care of. This is important. They are two separate things. I don't believe in the God you believe in. I can't explain why many things that you attribute to him have happened, but I don't have an alternate theory. I just don't think your theory/claim is a satisfactory answer. [ QUOTE ] "I don't know" in certain situations is not a neutral position if you ought to know. I'm not saying you ought to know at this point, but God says all are responsible because He reveals Himself to all. "I don't know" eventually equals "I don't accept". Again, not being personal, just telling you what I think the Bible indicates. God will not leave us alone, He will not allow neutrality - we are being saved or we are being condemned all along the timeline of our lives. There are no spiritual Switzerlands. [/ QUOTE ] Again, I'm not claiming a neutral position on whether your God exists. I'm claiming a neutral position on the question of who created the universe and why we are here. Completely different. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] In my mind, there are better explanations for why most of humanity believes in God/Gods than that they actually exist. [/ QUOTE ] There are many false religions and false gods. That man is a religious being should cause at least some curiosity beyond just chalking it up to evolution. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that their are and have been "false" religions and Gods is one of the reasons I tend to disbelieve in your conception of God. And I am intensely fascinated by religious thinking. I think it's much, much more complex than simple biological evolution. I probably differ from some other non-believers on this question though. I assure you that I have studied, discussed, and read about many, many religions. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Would you mind explaining what it means to "get far" in Christianity? [/ QUOTE ] I meant that when someone becomes a Christian he enters into discipleship which involves progress in becoming like Christ. That involves learning and practicing. To deny the divinity of Christ is to deny a major doctrine of the Bible and I think it would hinder a Christian in his progress. I've never known a practicing Christian who does deny that Christ is God, though historically that heresy does exist, and is traditionally denounced as heresy. But I was just trying to emphasize the importance of the doctrine, I'm not trying to pronounce judgment on anyone. [/ QUOTE ] Understood. I wasn't quite sure what you meant. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] are you more upset by atheists or liberal Christians who believe Jesus was a great teacher and not God? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not upset by either. I'm concerned to defend the Gospel and to impart whatever knowledge I have that may help anyone seeking the truth. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe upset was the wrong word choice. Perhaps 'frustrated' would be more appropriate. I was just curious as to who you think does more damage to Christianity, the believer who gets things wrong or the atheist who attacks the religion. For me personally, I am much more frustrated/upset/disappointed by atheists who overstate their claims and needlessly rail against religion than most others. It irks me because I believe they are trying to make some of the same points I am, but they are doing a piss poor job of it. I thought you might feel similarly about liberal theists think Jesus was "just a man".
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#120
07-13-2007, 03:44 AM
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Re: Is religion harmful?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] But it is important to keep in mind that if they "didn't" happen, your specific beliefs are incorrect. [/ QUOTE ] Paul beat you to it: 1 Corinthians 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins [/ QUOTE ] The point is that from your point of view, the distinction between the probability that miracles could occur, compared to did occur, is pretty irrelevant. Meanwhile if there is a God out there, who enjoys your eloquent arguments that he must be out there, but who is simultaneously of a tad different form than you think, you constantly exasperate him with quotes like the one above. Also, does the Pope's silly statements about you, make you reflect on the wiseness of moving slightly toward a more generic Christianity rather than sounding like him?
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