Is this considered offensive?

[thehotspur]

Daniel appears to find different accents inherently amusing, which is not in itself indicative of any bigotry. He is a good impressionist and likes mimicking accents which agin is fine.

But where there is a problem is that such mimicking is also done by genuinely bigoted people as a way of ridiculing others. Thus many people are naturally uncomfortable when they witness white people doing impressions of other races. They would have to know who you really are in order to properly judge the intention of it.

I'm sure many people who watched HSP 2 would have felt that the continued impression of Minh Ly was making fun of him and his English. You may have been doing it because you like doing accents, but others may have seen it as ridiculing him because of his difference.

As long as you are comfortable with your motivations, and those you care about are, and you are not focused on protecting a "political" public image then I wouldn't worry about it too much. And I certainly wouldn't be looking for balanced judgement or absolution from an online poker dicussion forum! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[pokerraja]

Daniel,
Ok, you are originally from Romania, or maybe your parents are, im not sure. Anyhow, imagine if I painted my face accordingly, dressed in poor garb, spoke with a Romanian accent and made a 'funny' skit mocking gypsies. My 3 Romanian-American friends thought it was funny, but do you think people in Romania will be equally receptive?

Now, conversely if Eddie Murphy did said skit, im sure people of Romania, namely gypsies, would think it is hilarious. Do you see why?

[MoolahMuerte]

You will always offend somebody - question is do you care? Personally, I generally do care - so I censor myself quite a bit. But then there are the Howard Sterns of the world - who could seemingly care less.

People in Kazakhstan were offended by Borat - even though the joke was really on America.

Also - recently Rosie O'Donnell did an impersonation of chinese speech saying "Ching Ching Chong" or something like that and people went berserk - and she's a professional comedian etc.

Even Eddie Murphy has been pilloried in the press by African American Women's Groups for his portayal of them in Norbit - but its No 1 at the box office.

Also someone above mentioned context and when something might not be appropriate. You can poke fun at someone in private if that person doesn't care. I have a friend who is overweight and I am short. We kid each other mercilessly about our shortcomings. But when other people are around - I refrain completely from joking about his weight cause other people would be offended and I don't want to be a jackass. In this vein, I would say about the asian accent - the first minute i was ok, but then the constant harping on it - i was like "give the guy a break, i'm sure he's doing the best he can" - so yeah, i was little uncomfortable with it - especialy knowing how pc people can be.

[maryfield48]

Are you guys serious with the "it's not offensive because he didn't intend to offend" argument? Don't you see what a loop-hole that creates?

"Oh, I didn't mean it." "Oh, you're too sensitive." "Oh, enough with the PC crap." These aren't arguments, they are just as knee-jerk and unthinking as you accuse the 'PC' views of being.

As I said in the other thread, only the privileged can afford true indifference to the feelings/sensitivities of others. Subordinate groups have no choice but to take into account those with power.

It is hardly surprising that subordinate groups use whatever power they can muster to have their concerns acknowledged. If that leads to accusations of hyper-sensitivity, so be it. Given the pantheon of insults that oppressed minorities have suffered over the years, I would guess that "hyper-sensitive" barely registers, except to the extent that it is further evidence of indifference.

[Daniel Negreanu]

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Really? Those are some pretty accomplished poker players you're naming there. I didn't think in any of this discussion there was a question as to Negreanu's poker playing ability. Do the results not speak from themselves?

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If you think Negreanu, Lindgren and Cunningham are on the same level of some of the High Stakes NLHE players on this forum, you are very wrong.

I think Aba, Durrrr, etc. would love to play any of those 3 for rolls.

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Online or live? You are probably right about online play, I totally suck. As for playing in a live game where I could see them, I'd be game if it was high enough.

[bernie]

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Really? Those are some pretty accomplished poker players you're naming there. I didn't think in any of this discussion there was a question as to Negreanu's poker playing ability. Do the results not speak from themselves?

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If you think Negreanu, Lindgren and Cunningham are on the same level of some of the High Stakes NLHE players on this forum, you are very wrong.

I think Aba, Durrrr, etc. would love to play any of those 3 for rolls.

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Online or live? You are probably right about online play, I totally suck. As for playing in a live game where I could see them, I'd be game if it was high enough.

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You wouldn't pull a matusow, would ya?
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b

[Studs & Duds]

"There's a difference between being entertaining and being an entertainer." -Studs & Duds 2/16/07

[John Kilduff]

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Yeah but Daniel didn't really do anything wrong.... It was just a skit to have fun with.

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Yes, releasing a blackface video in the middle of Black History Month is going to be interpreted as just a funny guy doing a funny skit, just like the frat boys throwing a BBQ on MLK day at U of Texas where the party goers were dressed in gang apparel, Aunt Jemimas etc... , carrying hand guns and eating fried chicken and drinking malt liquor were just showing tribute to a great man.

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It's obvious to anyone watching the skit that he was doing it in good spirit, not mean spirit. It's obvious that he made Dexter out to be a rather cool dude, and that even afterwards as Daniel's real self, Daniel enjoyed getting into the spirit of trying to "talk like a Jamaican". I though daniel came off cool at the end and it was clear he was having fun trying "to be" Jamaican for just a little bit.

I think people who don't see past the blackface are missing something. As for "how it is interpreted", people who can't read Daniel's good spirit and intention in the skit can't read people at all. It should be interpreted in the spirit in which it was meant and delivered, not by some arbitrary standard that says certain costume accessories are always off-limits.

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Besides that, it wasn't even a caricature of American blacks like in the Jim Crow days. It was a caricature of a Jamaican hipster pokah playa and Daniel made the guy out kinda cool in a way.

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Is this naivite or complete ignorance? Do you really believe that blackface should be taken in the context of where it is done and to whom it is refering to?

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Yes, I believe it should be context dependent, just like other costume accessories or props.

By the way, Jamaicans ARE NOT American blacks; they are Caribbean islanders. They don't share the history of oppression in America which American blacks underwent many years ago, and old American black stereotypes don't fit with Jamaican context, either - so the blackface PC objection doesn't really even fit, even if it had merit.

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Reducing blackface down to this neglects that it is not merely putting cork or shoepolish on ones face and dancing in a minstrel show, it is an attitude that has been reflected in art, knick knacks, literature, rhetoric etc... throughout many countries and continues to this day and is being justified in this instance because it's a Canadian of Romanian descent on American soil playing a Jamaican.

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Daniel clearly didn't mean it that way so it is inappropriate to act as if he did.

Was blackface used to negativly characterize Jamaicans during the pre-civil rights era? I doubt that very much; it was used to caricaturize American blacks, not Caribbean islanders. Totally different cultures and backgrounds, there. And the primary emphasis in Daniel's skit, too, was on the Jamaicanness and the coolness, not the blackness. The blackface was just a prop, not the point of focus. You're acting as though it was the point of focus. Well, maybe it was - for you. But if so I believe you're missing something or are too hung up on that to get the bigger picture.

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Additionally, these incidents tend to expose one's own subtle biases. One of my biases is that I believe there already is an inherent coolness and hipness to Jamaicans whether it be their music, mannerisms, colloquialisms, fashion etc... whereas here one can easily construe that in order for Jamaicans to be "made kinda cool in a way," it takes blackface to do it.

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It wasn't that "it takes blackface to do it", the blackface was just part of the costume, like the dredlocks.

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I'm actually glad to see people starting to get sick of all the PC bullcrap that has taken over our culture in recent years. Why let the Speech-And-Thought-Nazis win this round by giving them an unmerited apology.

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Political correctness does at times create over sensitivity and disproportionate reactions to inocculous situations, but it is rarely if ever violent and it is not as capable of instilling facism upon a society as the sick of it crowd is. In the last 6 years spiteful, venemous and hateful rhetoric has increased, often stemming from the capitol by our lawmakers. Is it any wonder that hate groups and hate crimes have been increasing at an accelerated rate when leaders in this country place blame on immigrants, gays and lesbians, mexicans, arabs, the secular and it is amplified on a daily basis? These are the same lawmakers responsible for such life and liberty legislation as TIA, HLS, PA, so tell me again who is leading the charge into thought policing, those that ask kindly that you not say certain things or those that record everything you say?

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All thought-policing is bad, in my opinion. PC thought-policing as well as every other type.

[cpltunnel]

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Online or live? You are probably right about online play, I totally suck. As for playing in a live game where I could see them, I'd be game if it was high enough.

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Isn't this pretty much an admission that your technical game is weaker than these online pros? And since you are saying you totally suck and would lose online, doesn't it follow that there must be some pretty big exploitable holes in your game that these online HSNL players hold over you? If not, explain why you 'totally suck' online without having big exploitable holes in your game.

And if your edge comes from reading people, why don't these online pros just order hoodies from Phil Laak - are you saying that you would totally suck under these conditions as well? For all your fans that believe you are one of the best cash game players, you are pretty much telling them that, without big tells and 'feel' provided by live play, you are a below average player. So if a person doesn't really believe tells are the name of the game in poker. or that they are easily correctable, you probably shouldn't believe Daniel knows what he is talking about. What about your book then? Are you going to teach people 'feel'? Because you are otherwise admitting that your technical advice is flawed enough to be 'totally suck'-y for online games. Hope you've discovered a new way to describe intangibles.

Someone else pointed out the real reason Daniel stays away from 2p2 HSNL high-level discussions: when it comes to mathematics, he has absolutely no game to speak of, therefore he must dismiss it and mock it as overrated. I doubt he has ever done any single calculus or statistics problem like, ever in his life, yet because he is DANIEL, he of course just knows math is overrated in poker.

Ask yourself this - do you really believe Daniel's edge in reading people is so great that it can overcome the 75% less hands (at least) you play per hour live versus online cash play for pros? If you find that hard to believe and think volume is way more important than Teddy KGB-level tells, then Daniel needs a better excuse for why he stopped online play (he played a lot online when the games were softer than ice cream a few years back and had no excuses then.)

I think the real reason he stopped playing online is because there are people (sad people, but people) who datamine the big online games and post the results here. In other words, you can't avoid your results being truly public as opposed to live games where you can say you are running spectacularly no matter what. Got to give the fans what they want to hear.

As an aside, how in god's good name does someone become a fanboy? Not just of Daniel's, but of anybody in poker? Do you need to be abused as a child and have no pride whatsoever? I assumed that anyone gambling would be old enough to give up silly fanboy man-crushes, but some of the lavishing hero-worship that goes on here (usually by posters < 80 posts and NEVER respected strategy posters) makes me think a lot of underage teens follow poker. So sad.

[Mason Malmuth]

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I welcome discussion about the game, but I have a circle of friends that I discuss poker with: Ivey, Harman, Lindgren, Juanda, Cunningham, and others. It's safer to talk to them then discuss poker in a forum where you will get chastised if you don't use terms like "Standard Deviation" and "EV." Probably my two least favorite phrases in the world.

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But there's another reason you may want to partake in some of the discussions here. You're now a book author with a "major" work on the way and, in my opinion, there is no better place anywhere for driving book sales than www'twoplustwo.com. My best guess is that if you participate here in a strong positive way, you'll double the sales of your books assuming that they are well done and also well recieived by our posters and readership.

MM