The pretend (preflop) blinds and the real (position based) blinds

[Parlay Slow]

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ok so if the blinds are 1 cent/ 2 cent with 5 k stacks youd raiuse to a quarter or some [censored]? 175 is more than reasonable, but that should be youre opener with whatever youre opening with (if not more)
There reaches a point where the blidns are completly irrelevant and you should just raise based on stacks

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Wow -- this is very wrong.

They say that "poker is a battle that begins over the blinds," and they don't say it for nothing. If you're raising a three cent pot to $175, you've made an absolutely catastrophic and unrecoverable strategic error. In fact, a savvy opponent could tighten up and play nothing but AA, reraising all-in preflop every hand, and even if you played perfectly (folding every time) he would win at a rate of about 360 PTBB/100, which is a reasonably respectable winrate.

For those who are saying "LOL this strat works fine when others play along," notice that your entire strategy relies on the assumption that your opponents are retarded and won't adjust their strategy to exploit your GINORMOUS PREFLOP ERROR. If you get a couple savvy "short stacks" (with, say, under $175 at a $0.01/$0.02 table) you will hemorrhage money out of every orifice.

For those who are saying "LOL it's still chump change" then WTF were you doing sitting at a 2-cent table in the first place?

Maybe this will make things more clear: you're at a $10/$20 table and two players have $1,000,000 each in front of them. They're each playing a TAG-like game, running 22/20. Since their stacks are so large, their opening raise is to $40,000. Can you see this as an exploitable strategy, especially for another player sitting down at the table with $2,000 (soon to be $80,000)?

There's a reason that the antes/blinds anchor the preflop raises: if they don't, your preflop strategy will be emminently exploitable by a patient opponent.

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360 PTBB/100 is certainly a great winrate, but that does not mean you couldn't make MORE money by calling the $175 with a wider range and playing post flop.

[good2cu]

I disagree with both the points made in this theard and think most top players do also.....

[Ellsworth T]

I have played in a live game with BoostedJ where the blinds were 5/10. The average raise was 70=100 preflop and the majority of the stacks were 2k deep with some being 5-6k and there were a few small stacks (roughly 500), so it perfectly fit in the range of this debate. Here is what happened...

BoostedJ started raising to 100 from any position and regardless of the amount of limpers. Now an ideal strategy would be to sit there and wait for a good hand, but think of the implications if you are both 2k or more deep. Boosted is a very good postflop player. If you are in the BB with AA and Boosted is UTG and you both have 4k, he raises to 100, what should your raise be? You will think around 400, but if you are not widening your preflop range you will be playing out of position with only 1/10 of your stack in the middle, and your hand somewhat obvious. I can hear your arguments already, reraise light and start stealing his 100 opening, but the problem is, he doesn't open raise EVERY hand, he selects his hands, and he can still wake up with one and he can play back at you. This created an extremely fasicinating dynamic amongst the table,

I realized it early and started to pick my spots, I started to reraise without looking at my cards when he would raise and one of the weaker players would flat call. I promise you that there is not at all an unbeatable strategy to this tactic.

"Wait for aces" The problem is the opening raiser doesn't raise every hand as is assumed for some reason in the model. In fact I got AA and KK and BOTH times he folded preflop, what happened in his stead was that someone else opened raised to 70, because this became the norm.

Basically what happened was that Boosted was making the other players play out of their comfort zone by increasing the pot to usually around 200-1000 depending on preflop play, and there were no two ways around it, everyone followed suit. You get JJ in the BB and you have been waiting for a while I promise you that you aren't thinking about sitting this one out. Even with zero antes or blinds, tehre would be an incentive for the other players to play simply to steal his opening raise.

[maddog2030]

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Even with zero antes or blinds, tehre would be an incentive for the other players to play simply to steal his opening raise.

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WTF HE WOULDN'T OPEN RAISE W/O AA IF THERE ARE NO BLINDS/ANTES. HOW COME PEOPLE CAN'T GET THIS?

[Dan BRIGHT]

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I disagree with both the points made in this theard and think most top players do also.....

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tell me why why why
or your bye bye bye bye bye

[Parlay Slow]

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Even with zero antes or blinds, tehre would be an incentive for the other players to play simply to steal his opening raise.

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WTF HE WOULDN'T OPEN RAISE W/O AA IF THERE ARE NO BLINDS/ANTES. HOW COME PEOPLE CAN'T GET THIS?

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Again, you are wrong. Game theoretically optimal play != most profitable play in all situations.

[maddog2030]

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Game theoretically optimal play != most profitable play in all situations.

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I never said it was.

[rcs1537]

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For those who are saying "LOL this strat works fine when others play along," notice that your entire strategy relies on the assumption that your opponents are retarded and won't adjust their strategy to exploit your GINORMOUS PREFLOP ERROR

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Ever played a live $1/2 or $2/5 NL game?

"Others playing along" is exactly what happens when the standard opening becomes $15-20 in a $1/2 game.

Opening preflop is essentially an open challenge: "I've got a hand, who wants to play some poker?" and the blinds are disregarded.

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I agree with this...

However, regarding OP's post, I do want your blinds, no matter how small they are... I'd like your stack as well, but i'll happily steal all the blinds i can.

If you let me steal your blind for an hour straight, while you never take mine; Those blinds, even those they are relatively small to your stack, add up.

If my opponents are raising extra ordinary amounts (like the 1-2 live game), then i'll simply fold until i have a good hand.

My point is, although your stack is deep, raising large compared to the blinds simply makes other players "ignore the blinds", while you over commit to the pot... When your PRF is large compared to the blinds, YOU create this "no blind" atmosphere for your opponents, rather than yourself.

[aislephive]

This is at the least, a very interesting thread.

I agree with Dan on most of what he said except for (like most) what he said about altering your preflop raise due to stack sizes. Not only is it wrong, but it's not all that easy to do. If in a 5/10 game five players are 5k deep, three are 2k deep, and two are 1k deep, then there is going to be some problems with opening based on stack sizes and it will be heavily dependant on your position relative to the other stacks as to your preflop raise size if you were opening on account of stack sizes and not blinds.

Blinds are the biggest factor in cash games, no matter how deep you are. That sort of brings up implied odds / reverse implied odds in a nutshell. Let's say you're at a table full of good players, with 100bb stacks. Calling a preflop raise from a tight solid player with a small pair is obviously +EV if they're opening to a standard amount, especially if you are viewed as an aggressive player where they will be hard pressed to get rid of aces on a rag board when the money isn't very deep and your percieved range is relatively wide. Now let's say the stacks were extremely deep, 1000bbs. You're in the same spot with a small pocket pair facing a raise from a solid player preflop. While calling there is definitely a winning play, now there is a whole new element introduced based on reverse implied odds. Is a good player ever felting an overpair 1000bbs deep when they open to say 5bbs preflop? What ends up happening is that you might win a pretty nice pot when you flop a set against an overpair, say 200-400bbs, but when you get all your chips in with bottom set for a 2000bb pot you'll be ahead almost never against a good player. You can counter-act this I suppose by making huge bluffs while being that deep against somebody you know has an overpair but you put them in a dillema where you're almost forcing them to felt an overpair this deep so that on the occasions you have a set in that spot they'll be more inclined to pay you off. I'll stop there because it will get even more confusing and irrelevant, but the bottom line is that the blinds drive the game any way you look at it. The deeper you get though, the less relevant blinds are, but they never become irrelevant is the key.

[SA125]

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Are you serious?

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Yeah, in limit the play is easy and a no brainer. In NL, I don't think inflating the pot oop with a drawing hand is a good idea. The strength of your hand is also hidden.

Making continuation psb's when you miss vs playing the hand strong when you hit and you don't have the lead seems clear which one is better.