Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team - Page 12

reo · #**111** 07-23-2007, 06:10 PM

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yeah but still, even with all those negatives, the fact that its a basic 50-50 split with the edge going to S. American teams should mean something. Me, I personally have no interest in the S. American clubs, although I do like Boca, but I don't care if those teams are perceived better. It just seems that Euro pundits love bashing clubs from around the world and they have an arrogance about them. English people are probably the worst about this. Hey, if you guys are so freakin good, how come you only have one WC?

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How is the edge going to South American clubs? It's played at a neutral site. Due to historical results? Depending on the country, scheduling could be the only advantage.

However, its a two-sided coin. You could say a country like Brazil would have the advantage since they are rested but you could argue that they wouldn't be on form (they break at the beginning of December). Argentina on the other hand wouldn't have a scheduling advantage since break ends much less the same way the European club would (mid-December).

I couldn't agree more regarding the Euro media. It's been like that for a long time.

ThaSaltCracka · #**112** 07-23-2007, 06:21 PM

When I said edge I meant torwards S. America being better overall in the tournament. I did not mean one team had the advantage.

KDawg · #**113** 07-24-2007, 01:07 AM

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I am curious if Euro teams downplaying the tourney has anything to do with them not performing that well over there? Or is it just English teams that downplay it?

Total cups:
South America: 25
Europe: 21 (England 1...Manu).

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I think that it has a lot more to do with the fact that come december, all of the european clubs have just gotten through the group phase of teh CL and are gearing up for the real season in their leagues with most leagues having 6-8 matches in december and late november. Couple that with the fact that it used to just be held in Tokyo which is a good 20-24 hour flight from most major european destinations. All of that for a one-off match that only means something to the south american clubs.

lets honestly look at this in perspective. Say you are Milan and are second in points in teh SerieA in a very close 3 team race. You won the champions league the year before and have just ended the champions league group phase and have gone through to the next stage. What is important for you at the time of early december, gearing up for the next round of champions league and trying to win the scudetto, or winning the world club championship that is being held off in a place that is 8-10 time zones away and takes a week out of your players along with the travel. I know if I'm Milan, I'm not concentrating on the world club cup( and it's one off precursor before blatter got the idea for the club cup) and focusing all of my main concentration on getting deep in the champions league and trying to win the scudetto.

THe fact is, even if milan put out their first team, that team certainly won't be trying as hard and the money that it brings the club hardly will register on the screen. The money means tons more to the other clubs that aren't in UEFA then it does for Euro clubs. The club cup will bring in probably 1.5m GBP per club and the TV ratings won't bring in much money either. That money that they make for a week trip these days to a far off place is the same amount of money that they make for playing against a random club in the CL in the group phase(and that is not counting a win bonus+TV money+attendence money brought in). A club that makes it to teh CL semis can bank home almost 25-30m GBP. Lets not fool ourselves and think it's not about the money, cause that just ignores how modern football works. On top of that, winning the CL means much more pride wise then winning the Club championship

ThaSaltCracka · #**114** 07-24-2007, 02:01 AM

KDawg, I really don't know if I am buying this argument. 20 non English teams have won it. Did it mean something to them, or where they playing worse teams?

KDawg · #**115** 07-24-2007, 02:10 AM

that really has little to do with teh fact that way more often then not the european club couldn't care less about it. During the 70s, the european clubs cared so little about it that the runner up to the Champions Cup was entered into the compeition. Do you honestly believe that the european clubs care all that much about it. It's just a game half-way around the world and sometimes they will win. Your point doesn't address any of what I said. There is little financial reward for the european clubs, and there is little redeeming value of it for them too. If the european clubs actually cared, I would have no doubt that the results would be different

ThaSaltCracka · #**116** 07-24-2007, 02:39 AM

well tell you what, perhaps the Euro clubs don't care anymore. But with the emergence of soccer in Asia, you can sure as hell bet that Asian clubs will start to care. So will probably clubs from every confederation except Europe. Oh well, the soccer world will move on if Europe doesn't care.

KDawg · #**117** 07-24-2007, 02:46 AM

clubs from other confederations have cared since the competition got opened up because of the fact that they'd get a nice pay day. The problem is, if european clubs completely pull out of it, the competition just won't go. Since they've tried to change it to a group format in 2000, the european clubs have treated it like a holiday when it's actually run. The tournament was cancelled between 2001-2004 and they did the one-off match in tokyo. It'd be nice if the european clubs cared more, but they don't, so my point the whole time is that it's impossible to try to glean any info on the fact that south american clubs have beated the euro clubs as many times as they have

The_Bends · #**118** 07-24-2007, 04:51 AM

Just to reiterate what everyone who has any knowledge of European football has already said the Euro sides do not care about the world club tournament. They are obliged by Fifa to go and play with full teams but the fans aren’t bothered, then money isn’t there and as a consequence the players do not play to their full potential.

For a concrete example look at the outrage when Man Utd dropped out of the FA cup to play in the Club championship in SA under pressure from FIFA, the FA and their own marketing people. The fans of United hated it. The fans of other teams hated it. Everyone involved got blasted and the team who the previous year had absolutely dominated Europe played terribly losing to Vasco de Gama and drawing with Necaxa. We only managed a scraped victory against South Melbourne who would barely register three divisions below the premiership.

The simply fact is that football is an extremely high variance game so even a team with vastly better players and teamwork can still lose to a team who scores a lucky goal and then gets enough men infront of the goal. As a result you can back up almost any point with relevant matches, it’s simply that those matches prove very little.

Back to the original question top club teams are better. The reason for this is that the manager gets to build a team over a number of years from the best players in the world. National teams on the other hand have to deal with what they have (e.g. England constantly hampered by the lack of left sided players). Club teams are therefore much more balanced. Add this to at least equal talent levels and much better team work (60+ matches per year rather than 20 or so, plus constant training together) and you have a clear win for the top club sides.

ThaSaltCracka · #**119** 07-24-2007, 10:52 AM

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The simply fact is that football is an extremely high variance game

[/ QUOTE ] Really? I thought the opposite was true.

The_Bends · #**120** 07-24-2007, 11:27 AM

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The simply fact is that football is an extremely high variance game

[/ QUOTE ] Really? I thought the opposite was true.

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Not sure if you're being sarscastic or not. If not then yes in any one off game a truely awful team can beat a brilliant team on the right day. The whole 'magic of the FA cup' principal is based on this fact.

if you're talking over a season then no.

I suppose to be more sopisticated about it I would say that big talent gaps have less of an effect than you would expect in a one off game.

Luck is also a huge factor in any cup competition. If you look at the World cup Italy almost messed up the group. Then almost went out to Australia. Then beat Germany in extra time and Beat France on Penalties. Hardly convincing but they're world champions for doing it.