Some Stuff About PUA (very long)

[nath]

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PUAs - "Look, get real. This is what works, this is what the world is like, this is how it is."
Nerds - "But it's wrong!"

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I think the idea that it's wrong stems from an assumption on the nerds' part; namely, that using women and treating them like [censored] is a goal of the PUAs and a prerequisite for using their techniques or getting women to sleep with you. Yeah, jerks get laid, but you don't have to be a jerk to get laid; you don't have to "trick" women into sleeping with you.

I mean... the fact is, for everything that nerds say they shouldn't "have" to do to get women, it often turns out there are things they do, subconsciously or not, that drive them away. And "I shouldn't have to become someone I'm not" usually means "I am comfortable in my (bad) habits and don't feel I should have to change them in order to meet women."

[The Yugoslavian]

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Nice, guids and cardo join forces for a PUA witch hunt! wheeeeeee!

*grabs popcorn*

Yugoslav

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Im not on a witch-hunt, I think i made it clear. What Im saying is that staying on th level of a PUA, w/o progressing passed the cheap ploys, and "neg hits", etc, will make you a douche bag in the long run. Its a great jumping off point, but its not the point Id ever want to stay at for too long.

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You're more entertaining when you want to break fools.

But eh you're at least saying a lot of stuff that not only sounds intelligent but is correct.

Yugoslav

[Blarg]

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That said, here are the things that bug me about PUA:

-Everyone who spouts the philosophy seems to be convinced that all girls are basically the same deep-down, at least when it comes to what they are attracted to (see Vehn's "Women like men." comment). I simply don't believe this

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You cheer when your favourite sports-team scores? Yes? So do all the other supporters of your favourite sports team when they score.

You jack off to porn? Yes? So does 99.9% of the people on this board when alone and confronted with the nudy girls.

On a hot day, you crave something cool to drink? Yes? So do other people.

Do all these things mean all those people in these groups mentioned are exactly alike? Fat chance.

Yet they react in certain ways in certain situations.
You do realize that something trivial like advertizing is `guilty` of the same approach?

All these bad marketeers taking advantage of the poor sheep to get them to buy stuff they do not need?


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While I don't doubt the effectiveness of that approach, I see no reason while being confident and in control would preclude actually being nice to someone.

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And you also have no clue really. Why are you assuming stuff without knowing what the hell you are talking about?

And based on that misconception you judge? How can I be taking you serious as a discussion partner?

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He's just neg-hitting on you. I predict sexy PM exchange between the two of you. Niiice!

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PUAs - "Look, get real. This is what works, this is what the world is like, this is how it is."
Nerds - "But it's wrong!"

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the idea that it's wrong stems from an assumption on the nerds' part; namely, that using women and treating them like [censored] is a goal of the PUAs and a prerequisite for using their techniques or getting women to sleep with you. Yeah, jerks get laid, but you don't have to be a jerk to get laid; you don't have to "trick" women into sleeping with you.

I mean... the fact is, for everything that nerds say they shouldn't "have" to do to get women, it often turns out there are things they do, subconsciously or not, that drive them away. And "I shouldn't have to become someone I'm not" usually means "I am comfortable in my (bad) habits and don't feel I should have to change them in order to meet women."

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nath,

I kind of disagree. to get laid on a regular basis, you HAVE to play games, games that are completely pointless, not fun, and pretty retarded, but games that women are for some reason conditioned to equate with attraction, if you dont, they wont be attracted.

[Alamo]

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I'd like to ask the guys that have gotten involved in the PUA community: did you do so because you felt inadequate in your previous social interactions?

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Yes. I had this growing feeling that I was doing something wrong with women.
I was 30/31 at the time and had had some success, but always managed to lose the girls in a matter of weeks.
So I started searching the internet, I found the PUA community.

I started reading and thought "no way!". Then I though "meh, got nothing to lose really". Lo and behold, after a couple of weeks women started to really really react in a very different way to me, for the better.

After that I really got hooked, and during 3 years I read books about genetics, psychology, and all kinds of related stuff, combining this with using the mASF messageboard.

I was able to confront myself with some nasty stuff from my past, and basically fought a fight I was always running away from (I won ldo), thanks to the whole PUA community who put me on the right track.

I am married now, to exactly the woman I imagined would be my wife. In my eyes she is hot, intelligent and funny, and that is all that really matters.

I apply PUA stuff quite regularly in my relationship, also am open about this part of myself to her, something I would have never done pre-PUA, afraid I would be judged/left/shot.

She does not like it, buy she also seems to think I am a pretty decent guy.

The concepts of self-improvement are by no means "wrong" to me. But I am the first one to admit that this stuff can be used to do very nasty things to unsuspecting women, and I am firmly against that. That is no PUA, that is hating women, and that is just damned ugly. And wrong.

[Blarg]

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Until you truly love the company of women, you are just a pig looking for somewhere to stick it.

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Bingo. That's deep.

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I like it. We're all looking for somewhere to stick it, but there are plenty of different kinds of fun, and a place for all of them in rounding out a life. Reducing too much of attraction to a science makes it more and more resemble masturbation.

[Anacardo]

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Cardo,

--
PUAs - "Look, get real. This is what works, this is what the world is like, this is how it is."
Nerds - "But it's wrong!"
--

Please articulate more specifically what you feel is "wrong" about male-female social dynamics in our society.

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In society at large? Hell, I'm probably not even qualified to comment; nearly anything I'd say would be an unfair generalization. As applied to PUA? The insincerity, and more than that, the interpretation of seduction as essentially a struggle to gain and hold power over women.

[sledghammer]

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Cardo,

--
PUAs - "Look, get real. This is what works, this is what the world is like, this is how it is."
Nerds - "But it's wrong!"
--

Please articulate more specifically what you feel is "wrong" about male-female social dynamics in our society.

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What's wrong is that women shouldn't be more attracted to him for not being 'himself', and using 'tricks.' Cardo may feel that this is somehow different than working out/dressing better in order to be more attractive, since those don't change the "real you." Of course, gaining useful knowledge/skills is beneficial in every other aspect of life: finding a job, winning at poker etc, and most would agree that increasing your odds of finding a great job is worth the education. Cardo's idealism extends to those areas as well (particularly finding a job).

Cardo has an overdeveloped sense of free will (in that any attempt to 'change' himself is dishonest) and entitlement (shouldn't have to work hard for an LTR or career, just being himself should be enough), just for being an intelligent human.

[soweak.]

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Cardo,

--
PUAs - "Look, get real. This is what works, this is what the world is like, this is how it is."
Nerds - "But it's wrong!"
--

Please articulate more specifically what you feel is "wrong" about male-female social dynamics in our society.

[/ QUOTE ]

In society at large? Hell, I'm probably not even qualified to comment; nearly anything I'd say would be an unfair generalization. As applied to PUA? The insincerity, and more than that, the interpretation of seduction as essentially a struggle to gain and hold power over women.

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I think the interpretation that seduction is a struggle for inadequate men to feel more powerful than women is not far off. In fact, if you read The Game, this is the conclusion that Style comes to at the end of the book.

But like all things, men get into the seduction community for many different reasons. One of which is for men who have felt slighted all thier life by women, and feel like PUA info is like getting Jedi Mind Tricks to make women do whatever they want. It's a mistake to believe that 1) all men in the community are in it for this reason and 2) the community professes this attitude to those it teaches and educates.

El D mentioned Real Social Dynamics earlier. One of the unique facets of this company over the others is that it teaches no prepared lines, what it does do is teaches men how to re-engineer their thinking about women and social situations that will benefit them more than how they currently filter the world.

For me, the seduction community was a not about exerting power over women, but was about becoming the type of man I always wanted to come across as, but never understood why I did not. For the longest time I had an unconscious incompetence when it came to women. Through the reverse engineering of social situations by PUAs and companies that offer services, it is possible to learn exactly what does and doesn't work.

[Anacardo]

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Cardo,

--
PUAs - "Look, get real. This is what works, this is what the world is like, this is how it is."
Nerds - "But it's wrong!"
--

Please articulate more specifically what you feel is "wrong" about male-female social dynamics in our society.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong is that women shouldn't be more attracted to him for not being 'himself', and using 'tricks.' Cardo may feel that this is somehow different than working out/dressing better in order to be more attractive, since those don't change the "real you." Of course, gaining useful knowledge/skills is beneficial in every other aspect of life: finding a job, winning at poker etc, and most would agree that increasing your odds of finding a great job is worth the education. Cardo's idealism extends to those areas as well (particularly finding a job).

Cardo has an overdeveloped sense of free will (in that any attempt to 'change' himself is dishonest) and entitlement (shouldn't have to work hard for an LTR or career, just being himself should be enough), just for being an intelligent human.

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LOL.

Dude, I'm fine with how I deal with women. For the last time, this isn't really about my dissatisfaction with anything. Once I was clueless, then that changed. Then I got fat, then that changed. Then I went crazy, and that's the 'Cardo many of you remember, but that's changed too. I'm fine. As I said earlier, my only real problem with girls atm is 'meeting one I like.' But that's not what this thread was supposed to be about; I botched the OP pretty bad.