multiaccounters caught?

[bustedromo]

[ QUOTE ]
You're delusional if you think these places will require you to scan your fingerprint in order to access the games in a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they don't, the European/former-Commonwealth governments will do exactly what the US has done and make it nearly impossible to move $ back and forth.

Most players, even most players on this site, have no clue how bad the bot problem is, and how quickly it's growing. I've seen a couple postings (one from a guy who says he was an engineer fired by a site) that hint at the real problem, but still miss the magnitude.

If you talk to people in the software industry who get ventures shopped at them, or those in research who are hungry and need $, you'll find that there are numerous high-powered operations already on the scene with limit bots.

People think a no-limit bot has to be proven capable of beating a good player HU before they're a threat. Actually, all that is needed is to spot various high expectation patterns in various players' play and take little pieces from them in 6handed or full ring.

Writing bots and running a bot operation is far easier than bot detection. The sites know they're way behind. They don't even make an attempt to identify losing bots, only winning players are analyzed. But the losing bots still are partially successful (some of their patterns still work to consistently take money from certain players).

The sites becoming so much more difficult in past couple years is not due to all the fish getting educated (lol, think of Vegas ... have they ever worried about fish getting educated?), rather it's due to bots growing at an exponential pace.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to highlight the stark difference btwn ZeeJustin and JJprodigy 18 months later. JJ doing more shady stuff and ZJ earning respect with his live game. Those hating online cheaters would do well to focus their ire on those who have not repented. I have great respect for how ZeeJustin has weathered the storm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a theory that many if not most of the aces going out of their way to rehabilitate ZeeJustin and other proven cheaters basically just feel guilty that he was caught and they weren't.

Stop telling us the kid deserves a break, NO HE DOES NOT. He's a slimey little card player who cheated not a wounded Iraqi combat veteran who got a DUI. Have some perspective you ignorant wannabees.

If you cheat in any other sport/game, conspire to rig the outcome, the punishment is often a lifetime ban.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to ignore your implicit accusation and focus on the bold:

This is certainly not the case in baseball. Corked bats (putting cork on the inside of the bat is an illegal way to get more power), doctored balls (pitchers will rub vaseline, for instance, on a ball to enhance the effect of a curveball), and, ahem, Barry Bonds, are all part of the game. If caught, you face fines and suspensions - not perma-bans. I'll forever hold a little hate in my gut for Byun Yung Kim for cheating during one of the most spectacular comebacks in Cubs history. Down 8-1 in the 7th inning, the Cubs begin a modest comeback at Arizona, 8-3 (?) in the 8th and they score 4 more. Then Kim throws a pitch and something... suspicious flies out of his back. It appeared to all the world as though he had been putting pine tar on the ball to get extra curve. Perhaps had he not cheated, the Cubs would have completed the comeback. Kim got little penalty, if any.

In water polo you are taught that whatever the refs don't see, didn't happen. Tons of illegal stuff happens under the water, I am told. This is cheating.

In football, linemen do all sorts of dirty things. My 8th grade history teacher told of a teammate who would stab opposing players with a safety pin.

In all 3 of these instances, players are doing whatever they can get away with - knowing that it is against the rules of the sport, and that many would consider it cheating. Is multiaccounting that different? Well, there is taboo attached to cheating at cards, no doubt. But at the time these players were doing it, it was still a new thing of questionable morality - not of absolute illegality. With JJ and ZJ the rules became more defined. ZJ gave us an absurd "apology", but then went on to make an admittedly laughable program of penance (see Tico Bonomo) which showed, at least, an effort to make ammends. Since then he's paid his dues in "6 horses" jokes, and at live tables. He's been implicated in no shady activities. He is making an effort to rejion the poker community, even showing up to 2p2 functions where he knows there will be people that "hate" him.

JJ has slithered back into the shadows and continued to find ways to cheat. He and his friends show scorn for poker community and disdain for the sites that facilitate our livelyhood. Save your scorn for true cheaters - players that will do anything they are capable of doing to get that extra edge; playing in pairs, marking cards, smuggling tourney chips, etc. And, yes, now we can clearly add multi-accounting to that list. ZJ is not a cheater. He was a young man who got caught doing something of dubious legality and has since done nothing even remotely close. Cheaters cheat. Human beings make mistakes and atone for them.

[CardSharpCook]

Oh, and if you don't feel guilty for something in your past, then you haven't had a past worth living. There is much in my life that I need to atone for. Fortunately, cheating at poker isn't one of them.

(I guess I could only ignore your accusation for so long.)

[bustedromo]

[ QUOTE ]
Cheaters cheat. Human beings make mistakes and atone for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you will have a bit more trouble bifurcating cheaters and human beings if you attempt to analyze corporate-style bot operations in the same way.

As an example of corporate-style cheating, it's well known in trading that the big brokerages loosely conspire to bring the price of a hot stock down in the first 0-15 mins of the trading day to shake out timid $ and accumulate shares which they then sell back to the public as the stock rises throughout the day. They've been doing this for 20 years that I know of. Is this cheating ?

[Sciolist]

[ QUOTE ]
JJ was a 2p2 mod briefly, he got pissed off when SpicyF banned him from IRC, so banned Spicy from the forums and was demodded subsequently.

[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, not like SpicyF is not a minority opinion

[antisocialgrace]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to highlight the stark difference btwn ZeeJustin and JJprodigy 18 months later. JJ doing more shady stuff and ZJ earning respect with his live game. Those hating online cheaters would do well to focus their ire on those who have not repented. I have great respect for how ZeeJustin has weathered the storm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a theory that many if not most of the aces going out of their way to rehabilitate ZeeJustin and other proven cheaters basically just feel guilty that he was caught and they weren't.

Stop telling us the kid deserves a break, NO HE DOES NOT. He's a slimey little card player who cheated not a wounded Iraqi combat veteran who got a DUI. Have some perspective you ignorant wannabees.

If you cheat in any other sport/game, conspire to rig the outcome, the punishment is often a lifetime ban.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to ignore your implicit accusation and focus on the bold:

This is certainly not the case in baseball. Corked bats (putting cork on the inside of the bat is an illegal way to get more power), doctored balls (pitchers will rub vaseline, for instance, on a ball to enhance the effect of a curveball), and, ahem, Barry Bonds, are all part of the game. If caught, you face fines and suspensions - not perma-bans. I'll forever hold a little hate in my gut for Byun Yung Kim for cheating during one of the most spectacular comebacks in Cubs history. Down 8-1 in the 7th inning, the Cubs begin a modest comeback at Arizona, 8-3 (?) in the 8th and they score 4 more. Then Kim throws a pitch and something... suspicious flies out of his back. It appeared to all the world as though he had been putting pine tar on the ball to get extra curve. Perhaps had he not cheated, the Cubs would have completed the comeback. Kim got little penalty, if any.

In water polo you are taught that whatever the refs don't see, didn't happen. Tons of illegal stuff happens under the water, I am told. This is cheating.

In football, linemen do all sorts of dirty things. My 8th grade history teacher told of a teammate who would stab opposing players with a safety pin.

In all 3 of these instances, players are doing whatever they can get away with - knowing that it is against the rules of the sport, and that many would consider it cheating. Is multiaccounting that different? Well, there is taboo attached to cheating at cards, no doubt. But at the time these players were doing it, it was still a new thing of questionable morality - not of absolute illegality. With JJ and ZJ the rules became more defined. ZJ gave us an absurd "apology", but then went on to make an admittedly laughable program of penance (see Tico Bonomo) which showed, at least, an effort to make ammends. Since then he's paid his dues in "6 horses" jokes, and at live tables. He's been implicated in no shady activities. He is making an effort to rejion the poker community, even showing up to 2p2 functions where he knows there will be people that "hate" him.

JJ has slithered back into the shadows and continued to find ways to cheat. He and his friends show scorn for poker community and disdain for the sites that facilitate our livelyhood. Save your scorn for true cheaters - players that will do anything they are capable of doing to get that extra edge; playing in pairs, marking cards, smuggling tourney chips, etc. And, yes, now we can clearly add multi-accounting to that list. ZJ is not a cheater. He was a young man who got caught doing something of dubious legality and has since done nothing even remotely close. Cheaters cheat. Human beings make mistakes and atone for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said "conspire to rig the outcome." Most of the examples you use don't really rise to that level, they're kind of negligible.

I deliberately didn't single you out, but again I feel strongly that a very high percentage of the early internet phenoms cheated to amass their huge rolls. Maybe they don't cheat today but that doesn't really matter since many of them got to where they are by illicit means and continue to profit from that big head start.

I think it would be great if they would all take lie detector tests.

[berya]

"plattsburgh is a JJ horse???"

If this was true it wouldn't suprise me one bit.

[bustedromo]

Multi-account cheating is totally out of control. I can't believe anyone on here would try to rationalize it away or defend those that do it. Those caught are just tip of the iceberg.

Huge payoffs (especially for young people who have little personal monetary assets). Next to no consequences if caught. Easy to do, especially if you're in a frat house, or in high school and all your buddies live nearby and in the same cable/dsl subnet.

[Valsuvious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to highlight the stark difference btwn ZeeJustin and JJprodigy 18 months later. JJ doing more shady stuff and ZJ earning respect with his live game. Those hating online cheaters would do well to focus their ire on those who have not repented. I have great respect for how ZeeJustin has weathered the storm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a theory that many if not most of the aces going out of their way to rehabilitate ZeeJustin and other proven cheaters basically just feel guilty that he was caught and they weren't.

Stop telling us the kid deserves a break, NO HE DOES NOT. He's a slimey little card player who cheated not a wounded Iraqi combat veteran who got a DUI. Have some perspective you ignorant wannabees.

If you cheat in any other sport/game, conspire to rig the outcome, the punishment is often a lifetime ban.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to ignore your implicit accusation and focus on the bold:

This is certainly not the case in baseball. Corked bats (putting cork on the inside of the bat is an illegal way to get more power), doctored balls (pitchers will rub vaseline, for instance, on a ball to enhance the effect of a curveball), and, ahem, Barry Bonds, are all part of the game. If caught, you face fines and suspensions - not perma-bans. I'll forever hold a little hate in my gut for Byun Yung Kim for cheating during one of the most spectacular comebacks in Cubs history. Down 8-1 in the 7th inning, the Cubs begin a modest comeback at Arizona, 8-3 (?) in the 8th and they score 4 more. Then Kim throws a pitch and something... suspicious flies out of his back. It appeared to all the world as though he had been putting pine tar on the ball to get extra curve. Perhaps had he not cheated, the Cubs would have completed the comeback. Kim got little penalty, if any.

In water polo you are taught that whatever the refs don't see, didn't happen. Tons of illegal stuff happens under the water, I am told. This is cheating.

In football, linemen do all sorts of dirty things. My 8th grade history teacher told of a teammate who would stab opposing players with a safety pin.

In all 3 of these instances, players are doing whatever they can get away with - knowing that it is against the rules of the sport, and that many would consider it cheating. Is multiaccounting that different? Well, there is taboo attached to cheating at cards, no doubt. But at the time these players were doing it, it was still a new thing of questionable morality - not of absolute illegality. With JJ and ZJ the rules became more defined. ZJ gave us an absurd "apology", but then went on to make an admittedly laughable program of penance (see Tico Bonomo) which showed, at least, an effort to make ammends. Since then he's paid his dues in "6 horses" jokes, and at live tables. He's been implicated in no shady activities. He is making an effort to rejion the poker community, even showing up to 2p2 functions where he knows there will be people that "hate" him.

JJ has slithered back into the shadows and continued to find ways to cheat. He and his friends show scorn for poker community and disdain for the sites that facilitate our livelyhood. Save your scorn for true cheaters - players that will do anything they are capable of doing to get that extra edge; playing in pairs, marking cards, smuggling tourney chips, etc. And, yes, now we can clearly add multi-accounting to that list. ZJ is not a cheater. He was a young man who got caught doing something of dubious legality and has since done nothing even remotely close. Cheaters cheat. Human beings make mistakes and atone for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said "conspire to rig the outcome." Most of the examples you use don't really rise to that level, they're kind of negligible.

I deliberately didn't single you out, but again I feel strongly that a very high percentage of the early internet phenoms cheated to amass their huge rolls. Maybe they don't cheat today but that doesn't really matter since many of them got to where they are by illicit means and continue to profit from that big head start.

I think it would be great if they would all take lie detector tests.

[/ QUOTE ]

/cough

I just finished my polygraph examiner school a few weeks ago. Originally I was hoping that it helped my live game a bit, but now I suddenly sense a different need for it....

[NickyC]

Polygraph exam, yeah, those are reliable....