Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven - Page 12

bunny · #**111** 08-10-2007, 10:32 AM

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Of course it's an interpretation. How many times have I said...in this thread no less...that there are multiple versions of the same Bible and multiple denominations out there in the world???? Can you people not read?

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The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.

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I am very confident in everything I have posted. I cannot speak to NR's heart because I haven't ever talked to him nor have I read all of his posts. Once again, I do not wish to discuss the Pope or the Catholic church in an open forum. But I will say that I would bet dollars to donuts that NR & myself pretty much agree on the vast majority of the scriptures & their meanings.

FWIW, I have no doubts about what I believe.

Bunny, all of the "core doctrines" you & I have discussed are straight out of the Word of God. There are only 2 core doctrines I have mentioned to you...that Jesus is the only way & there is a hell....one of which you don't believe no matter how many scriptures I show you saying otherwise.

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I didnt explain what I meant very well. Let me rephrase with an example maybe:

Do you believe it is a requirement of a christian to be a complete pacifist? How confident are you that you are correct in that view?

PLOlover · #**112** 08-10-2007, 10:33 AM

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I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.

Unbelievable

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what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?

Brad1970 · #**113** 08-10-2007, 10:37 AM

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I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.

Unbelievable

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what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?

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PLO, u trying to level me man?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Brad1970 · #**114** 08-10-2007, 10:44 AM

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Of course it's an interpretation. How many times have I said...in this thread no less...that there are multiple versions of the same Bible and multiple denominations out there in the world???? Can you people not read?

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The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.

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I am very confident in everything I have posted. I cannot speak to NR's heart because I haven't ever talked to him nor have I read all of his posts. Once again, I do not wish to discuss the Pope or the Catholic church in an open forum. But I will say that I would bet dollars to donuts that NR & myself pretty much agree on the vast majority of the scriptures & their meanings.

FWIW, I have no doubts about what I believe.

Bunny, all of the "core doctrines" you & I have discussed are straight out of the Word of God. There are only 2 core doctrines I have mentioned to you...that Jesus is the only way & there is a hell....one of which you don't believe no matter how many scriptures I show you saying otherwise.

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I didnt explain what I meant very well. Let me rephrase with an example maybe:

Do you believe it is a requirement of a christian to be a complete pacifist? How confident are you that you are correct in that view?

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Ummm. 100% Pacifist. No. But I do believe that God expects us to, as the old cliche says, "be the bigger person" when conflict arises. But letting someone literally walk all over you because they know you are a Christian & they probably aren't...no, I do not have that view. I don't know of any scripture off the top of my head that addresses this either...not to say there isn't one.

Bunny, I sense this whole 'pacifist thing' is an issue for you since you've mentioned it a couple of times now.

bunny · #**115** 08-10-2007, 10:46 AM

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Ummm. 100% Pacifist. No. But I do believe that God expects us to, as the old cliche says, "be the bigger person" when conflict arises. But letting someone literally walk all over you because they know you are a Christian & they probably aren't...no, I do not have that view. I don't know of any scripture off the top of my head that addresses this either...not to say there isn't one.

Bunny, I sense this whole 'pacifist thing' is an issue for you since you've mentioned it a couple of times now.

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Not especially, I was casting around for an illustration of the problem I see that the religious have.

So you dont believe being christian requires a belief in 100% pacifism. How confident are you that you are correct about that?

Brad1970 · #**116** 08-10-2007, 11:01 AM

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Ummm. 100% Pacifist. No. But I do believe that God expects us to, as the old cliche says, "be the bigger person" when conflict arises. But letting someone literally walk all over you because they know you are a Christian & they probably aren't...no, I do not have that view. I don't know of any scripture off the top of my head that addresses this either...not to say there isn't one.

Bunny, I sense this whole 'pacifist thing' is an issue for you since you've mentioned it a couple of times now.

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Not especially, I was casting around for an illustration of the problem I see that the religious have.

So you dont believe being christian requires a belief in 100% pacifism. How confident are you that you are correct about that?

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Well, Bunny other than you, nobody's ever posed that question to me. So I've never sat around & thought about it. But I'm pretty sure that isn't a requirement...why? Because (and here's the clincher) man was created in God's image, no? Says so in Genesis. God believes in punishment for those who don't believe & follow him, right? So, how can you think someone must be a 100% pacifist when God will send the unbelievers to hell when they die?? How many times in the Bible is there a recorded event of war??

Also, Christianity only requires one thing.......do I need to say what that is once again?????

PLOlover · #**117** 08-10-2007, 11:59 AM

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I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.

Unbelievable

what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?

PLO, u trying to level me man??

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

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By decree of Pope Pius V in 1567, following the Council of Trent, it is forbidden to attach the receipt of an indulgence to any financial act, including the giving of alms.
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In 1517, Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. The aggressive marketing practices of Johann Tetzel in promoting this cause provoked Martin Luther to write his 95 theses, protesting what he saw as the purchase and sale of salvation. In thesis 28 Luther objected to a saying attributed to Tetzel: "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs".[3] The 95 Theses not only denounced such transactions as worldly but denied the pope's right to grant pardons on God's behalf in the first place: the only thing indulgences guaranteed, Luther said, was an increase in profit and greed, because the pardon of the Church was in God's power alone.[4]

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also maybe you misunderstood me but my reading of revelation says that while it does say that satan will have eternal pain or whatever, the people who get the thumbs down on judgement day die, as in they are dead, 2nd death, it's over for them, no immortality of any kind.

Brad1970 · #**118** 08-10-2007, 12:15 PM

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Quote:

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I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.

Unbelievable

what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?

PLO, u trying to level me man??

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

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By decree of Pope Pius V in 1567, following the Council of Trent, it is forbidden to attach the receipt of an indulgence to any financial act, including the giving of alms.
...
In 1517, Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. The aggressive marketing practices of Johann Tetzel in promoting this cause provoked Martin Luther to write his 95 theses, protesting what he saw as the purchase and sale of salvation. In thesis 28 Luther objected to a saying attributed to Tetzel: "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs".[3] The 95 Theses not only denounced such transactions as worldly but denied the pope's right to grant pardons on God's behalf in the first place: the only thing indulgences guaranteed, Luther said, was an increase in profit and greed, because the pardon of the Church was in God's power alone.[4]

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also maybe you misunderstood me but my reading of revelation says that while it does say that satan will have eternal pain or whatever, the people who get the thumbs down on judgement day die, as in they are dead, 2nd death, it's over for them, no immortality of any kind.

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I'm certainly not Catholic & I have never seen this passage you posted but obviously I agree 100% with Martin Luther. I wasn't sure if you were joking or what??

As I said before, sounds like you understood Revelation. Why don't you read the rest of the Bible?

Cliff notes for those too lazy to read it: If your name is not found in the Lamb's Book of Life, then you get to go to Hell with Satan for eternity.

PLOlover · #**119** 08-10-2007, 12:23 PM

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As I said before, sounds like you understood Revelation. Why don't you read the rest of the Bible?

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mostly because I can't understand it. I listen to www.georgegordon.org he has audio shows that i listen to while playing poker ok really to put me to sleep, but I don't take his word for stuff I look up stuff in the bible that he talks about. most of his stuff is economic btw, only some of it is about the bible.
One thing I found interesting is that it says in the bible to never eat fat, well what do we do, we take the fat that would be wasted and use it for hot dogs and hamburgers, and then we wonder why we have heart disease. The bible has a lot of good stuff like that, health stuff, and economic stuff as well.

carlo · #**120** 08-10-2007, 12:33 PM

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The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.

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"Learn of Me", "My Yoke is easy and My burden light". Not particularly speaking to you bunny because this is what I interpret what you are saying. I agree, there have been and will continue to be contention, contradictions and paradoxes in the Christian message for it has a power of transformation for each soul. Each of us will have progressd(also regressed) to a particular state in this "knowledge" which is of the Christ Himself. But Christ is not about contention but of His Love bringing together all of mankind. This of course will take time. Logically, if it does take time, then there must be other forces acting against this movement. One of these forces is the Past which is everpresent in all of our earthly concerns. We can't escape our heritage which helps and also hinders our movement to that "Learn of Me".

This Christ Movement not only offers "knowledge" but is a "transformer of mankind". Consider that there is a movement of change of Man's physical, soul and spiritual state via the Christ Impulse. "Fixed in stone" it is not and in fact our time is only the very earliest stages of Christianity which means that Man has a way to go.

Again, the Christ Impulse is a transformative movement and ALL of Humanity is included.